tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8419444332771213285.post7780089061978882940..comments2024-03-28T11:51:19.078-07:00Comments on Caltrain HSR Compatibility Blog: The Top 10 Reasons For Peninsula BARTClemhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/01374282217135682245noreply@blogger.comBlogger66125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8419444332771213285.post-79111259756336851562015-08-02T17:56:18.810-07:002015-08-02T17:56:18.810-07:00Or just pull down the 101, and let the infill resi...Or just pull down the 101, and let the infill residential development work for those people... IAN! Mitchellhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14000346268609562407noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8419444332771213285.post-22601892295342874962015-02-21T11:36:22.970-08:002015-02-21T11:36:22.970-08:00There needs to be a second corridor (Bart And Calt...There needs to be a second corridor (Bart And Caltrain) down the peninsula that is under 101 or between 101 and the bay. This will rejuvenate real estate in those areas as well as cut 101 traffic tremendously. There are hundreds of thousands of people that work east of the 101 on the peninsula and caltrain is not viable option for those employees.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8419444332771213285.post-22711517084342820052010-05-21T20:12:56.912-07:002010-05-21T20:12:56.912-07:00Would eliminating Caltrain mean that HSR could sta...Would eliminating Caltrain mean that HSR could stay at grade between San Tomas Expressway and SJ Diridon?<br /><br />Would HSR get to use the CEMOF facility and the yard at Tamien, since BART will have its own facility at the Newhall Yard in Santa Clara?<br /><br />Considering the Caltrain tracks will anyhow have to be moved laterally and/or vertically (i.e. rebuilt) throughout the ROW, eliminating tunnels in the South Bay as well as in SF would actually cut the cost of the HSR project by quite a bit.Rafaelhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05471957286484454765noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8419444332771213285.post-81322682290231594552010-05-20T09:03:03.476-07:002010-05-20T09:03:03.476-07:00I'm an outsider from Minneapolis, but I've...I'm an outsider from Minneapolis, but I've been on Caltrain/BART many times as well as other systems (Asia, Europe). My thoughts...<br /><br />1. Get some unification from the customer perspective. Single brand, single map, single ticket/smart card.<br /><br />In Minneapolis we have many smaller agencies operating buses (especially express/commuter buses) in addition to the main one which does buses, light rail, and commuter. They share a map, fare structure, and RFID payment card. It makes a huge difference.<br /><br />2. Why not 4-track the Caltrain corridor for HSR and Caltrain? Slow trains and platforms on the outside, and enough switching to allow Caltrain to pass using the fast tracks and HSR to stop using the slow tracks. At bigger stations, have a center platform and two additional tracks in addition to the outside platforms.<br /><br />Platform | SB caltrain/slow | SB passing | SB HSR/slow | Island Platform | NB HSR/slow | NB passing | NB caltrain/slow | Platform.<br /><br />3. Use standard gauge and standard caternary for all new rail in the Bay Area, possibly like this...<br />http://www.thetransportpolitic.com/2010/01/06/crossing-the-bay-again-but-not-necessarily-with-bart/Matthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02687312607902984438noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8419444332771213285.post-86777192042654856842010-05-17T10:05:45.283-07:002010-05-17T10:05:45.283-07:00The $30m grant for the San Bruno Caltrain grade se...The $30m grant for the San Bruno Caltrain grade sep project is coming from the state's Prop 1B program; When they got word they could have the $30m provided they were out to bid by June 10, the rush was on.Reality Checknoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8419444332771213285.post-57200936794411466312010-05-14T10:48:03.896-07:002010-05-14T10:48:03.896-07:00Sorry, I guess I did forget that RER can be a gene...Sorry, I guess I did forget that RER can be a generic term, I just couldn't think of any examples other than the one, even though I've been on the Lausanne REV, and I believe that Geneva might have something called "RER" as well. The Lausanne version, by the way, has express trains, rather than skip-stop, and the timetable is an excellent example of how much can be done with only two tracks.<br /><br />By the way, Richard, I'm curious to see what you have to say on the topic of US vs. European approaches to grade crossing protection. I imagine there are bound to be differences, but I don't know pretty much anything about this topic aside from the different kinds of crossings the UK has.crzwdjkhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06394805356595604336noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8419444332771213285.post-68942590799388000952010-05-13T12:34:20.901-07:002010-05-13T12:34:20.901-07:00"RER" doesn't mean "Parisian re..."<a href="http://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/R%C3%A9seau_Express_Vaudois" rel="nofollow">RER</a>" doesn't mean "Parisian regional rail network" any more than "<a href="http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/S-Bahn_L%C3%A9man" rel="nofollow">S-Bahn</a>" means "Munich's".<br /><br />PS Running a single slow hour-headway non-branching train line in three <b><i>counties</i></b> is so very hard that ... <a href="http://www.regio-s-bahn.ch/Timetables/Transportation-map-4431-147.html" rel="nofollow">oh</a> <a href="http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Regio_S-Bahn_Basel" rel="nofollow">never</a> <a href="http://www.regio-s-bahn.ch/Ueber-uns/Projekte-4349-145.html" rel="nofollow">mind</a>.Richard Mlynarikhttp://www.pobox.com/users/mly/noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8419444332771213285.post-7112064200717734442010-05-12T23:17:47.654-07:002010-05-12T23:17:47.654-07:00From its routing, BART is entirely like the Paris ...From its routing, BART is entirely like the Paris RER. It has long stretches of track in suburbia, stopping fairly infrequently, and then runs through urban cores with more frequent service and stops<br /><br />But they built this fundamentally RER system with metro technology. Which is meant for short distances and high stopping frequency, not the opposite. Then they introduce a terribly and irritatingly complex ticketing system<br />And people wonder why BART sucksAnonymoosenoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8419444332771213285.post-68599065908565519152010-05-12T12:18:12.371-07:002010-05-12T12:18:12.371-07:00The RER doesn't run a lot of express patterns....The RER doesn't run a lot of express patterns. It's complicated, but that's a function of its size. Look at smaller cities' systems and you'll get much simpler service patterns, often without express service.Alon Levyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12195377309045184452noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8419444332771213285.post-48477243370605955922010-05-12T07:12:43.176-07:002010-05-12T07:12:43.176-07:00Nope, service-wise BART is entirely unlike the RER...Nope, service-wise BART is entirely unlike the RER. BART runs a very small number of service patterns, while the RER runs a lot of them. BART has all trains stopping at all stations, the RER does not. And of course the RER has very significant portions running on existing mainlines, while BART does not. I must say, though, BART does look very futuristic... in a 1960s sort of way. I mean, it's controlled by a <b>computer</b> after all.crzwdjkhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06394805356595604336noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8419444332771213285.post-33345627900735529052010-05-12T01:46:57.044-07:002010-05-12T01:46:57.044-07:00Service-wise, BART is very much like the RER. The ...Service-wise, BART is very much like the RER. The problem with it is that it's built as a greenfield subway, driving costs up. At the scale of an RER or S-Bahn system, the costs of new rapid transit are so high that the only way to keep within budget is to leverage existing commuter lines. BART systematically avoided doing that, starting from its choice of gauge.Alon Levyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12195377309045184452noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8419444332771213285.post-54858494049228911192010-05-11T23:50:56.233-07:002010-05-11T23:50:56.233-07:00"The only logical or rational way to explain ..."<i>The only logical or rational way to explain that high cost, is that BART's consultant/vendor capture and custom everything approach is what causes this.</i>"<br /><br />Ummm ... remind me again who is driving both BART-SJX <b>and</b> CHSRA?<br /><br />Which "custom everything" approach is it that the industry leaders of the Peninsula Rail Program are avoiding? (Aside from little details like signalling system, track standards, rolling stock, platform interface, operating rules, and scheduling?)<br /><br />Same human garbage in, same technical garbage out.Richard Mlynarikhttp://www.pobox.com/users/mly/noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8419444332771213285.post-50667892039509255552010-05-11T21:57:39.895-07:002010-05-11T21:57:39.895-07:00@ CTI Associates, Inc.
I think others explained p...@ CTI Associates, Inc.<br /><br />I think others explained pretty well why skip-stop is bad for riders. If your idea of BART on the Peninsula is like I described above, a re-branded CalTrain with upgrades like we've talked about on this blog, then sign me up. <br /><br />But if your idea of BART on the Peninsula is simply extending the current mess at Millbrae south to San Jose, which is what it sounds like your saying, then no thanks. That could cost $20 billion for worse service and slower speeds than we have now, if BART to SJ/Millbrae/etc. is any guide. You would do well to learn about the realities of BART and rail transit. This blog's archive is a good place to start.<br /><br />I actually agree with you that El Camino Real could use light rail, but it's no replacement for CalTrain. CalTrain should have stations every 1-2 miles, and receive service from all-stop locals. Most stations would get skipped by limited/express service, and ~8 is a good number of stations to serve, which is essentially what we have now.<br /><br />LRT stops would need to be closer, and it could replace most bus service on the corridor. ECR would also need to be rezoned for dense, mixed-use, transit-oriented development for this to make sense. I doubt any of that would happen though, as about 20 different suburban cities and the state control ECR/CA-82. ECR will likely remain auto-oriented, bike/ped hostile, and surrounded by low density strip malls.<br /><br /><i>arcady said, "And really, the RER is what BART should have been. Then we wouldn't be having this discussion."</i><br /><br />Word. <br /><br />The sad thing is they were designed and built at almost the same time (late 1950s/1960s. The Paris RER was to relieve Paris Metro and serve the rest of the Paris metropolitan, because the Paris Metro became too difficult, expensive, and unwieldy to expand. <br /><br />BART didn't bother to look at what real rail transit should be like, and basically went ahead and built a dinosaur designed by the World's Finest Railway Engineers (TM) at Parsons Brinckerhoff, Bechtel, and friends. It's far from the modern and sleek image it tries to project. <br /><br />We need a Bay Area RER.Samsoniannoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8419444332771213285.post-7031009263040821392010-05-11T19:50:17.631-07:002010-05-11T19:50:17.631-07:00A significant portion of the cost of BART goes int...<i>A significant portion of the cost of BART goes into building grade separation structures (overpasses, underpasses, viaducts, tunnels) to separate trains from auto, bicycle and pedestrian traffic. With HSR on the peninsula, 100% grade separation is already in the cards, making the marginal cost of BART much less than the usual quarter billion dollars per mile.</i><br /><br />Continuing on Drunk Engineer's comments, that just doesn't hold water. Dublin/Pleasanton in a freeway median being a good example of it, as well as eBART in eastern Contra Costa County.<br /><br />Also the proposed Livermore extension (<a href="http://21stcenturyurbansolutions.wordpress.com/2009/11/23/a-dose-of-reality-for-barts-livermore-extension/" rel="nofollow">A Dose of Reality for BART's Livermore Extension</a> and <a href="http://transbayblog.com/2009/11/10/gearing-up-for-livermore-and-altamont-part-1/" rel="nofollow">Gearing Up for Livermore and Altamont (Part 1)</a>) is ~$3-$4B for 7-13 miles of rail (~$300M/mile), before mandatory cost blowout that every BART project is afflicted with. <br /><br />BART to SJ is being phased now, with Phase 1 to Berryessa costing more than ~$2B for ~10 miles of rail (~$200M/mile), pre-blowout. Keep in mind this is at-grade, in an existing rail ROW (the later subway sections could be upwards of $500M/mile). Grade separating those crossings is expensive to be sure, but not that expensive. The only logical or rational way to explain that high cost, is that BART's consultant/vendor capture and custom everything approach is what causes this.<br /><br />Now the CHSRA hasn't built anything yet, and I haven't heard the latest numbers, but with the exception of the DTX/TBT mess, the Peninsula Rail Program (for all its warts) was expected to be ~$5B for ~50 miles of rail (~$100M/mile). For a grade-separated, electrified, 4 track line, in a developed area, while keeping an existing railroad active, that's within the real world.<br /><br />Re BART on the Peninsula:<br /><br />I have no problem with CalTrain becoming an organization within BART (e.g. LIRR and MNR within NY MTA), if that's what fixes its shortfalls in funding and political clout (competence on the other hand...). It could be called BART Peninsula, pBART, etc., and it could provide badly-needed transit consolidation and fare harmonization.<br /><br />Needless to say, it should still be standard gauge. And it should pursue the ideas expressed on this blog; 25 kV OCS, ERTMS/ETCS, harmonized platform height and length with HSR, etc. ("any train, any track, any platform"). We need a real integrated regional and intercity rail system. <br /><br />Of course, there's nothing preventing CalTrain from pursuing those things itself with CHSRA except incompetence and defeatism. CHSRA may be bringing the cash, but CalTrain has the goods. I don't think BART would have ever accepted being co-opted by another agency the way CalTrain has.Samsoniannoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8419444332771213285.post-33014470797277033142010-05-11T17:29:50.189-07:002010-05-11T17:29:50.189-07:00Altamont vs. Pacheco is irrelevant. Tehachapi vs. ...Altamont vs. Pacheco is irrelevant. Tehachapi vs. Grapevine is irrelevant. The point of the project is to build a grand monumental line between San Francisco and San Jose, and another one between LA and Anaheim, with possibly something in the Central Valley to keep those folks happy that they're getting their share of the pork. Of course that's assuming anything is going to get built at all, and that the state will actually sell the bonds that have been authorized.Angry Deniernoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8419444332771213285.post-43225396033949941422010-05-11T17:13:54.032-07:002010-05-11T17:13:54.032-07:00And how do you propose getting thru the EastBay wi...And how do you propose getting thru the EastBay with the UP?? That nonsense about BART giving up its SJ Row to HSr has a snowballs chance in hell of coming thru..And did anyone at TRAC or that group that proposed this alternative contact the SFWater Distric to even find out if any of there Row is open?? NO the line is still going thru as plannedAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8419444332771213285.post-9208658716378342972010-05-11T13:44:32.184-07:002010-05-11T13:44:32.184-07:00With UP continuing to give CHSRA the stiff arm, Sa...With UP continuing to give CHSRA the stiff arm, Sacramento/Stockton interests finally asserting themselves, and a viable Altmont route using utility ROWs clarified, the prospects for Altamont haven't looked so bright since the Commission days. Rod Diridon is fading away as well. <br /><br />With the program EIR decertified and thus forcing the issue, finding a route south of Diridon station looks hopelessly complicated and extremely extensive. It only exposes the fact that Diridon Station is not a good HSR station site for San Jose. Cahill Street is not close to "downtown" anyway, and the station site fits very awkwardly on any HSR alignment. San Jose would be wise to consider a brand new main station further north of Cahill Street. Somewhere in the vicinity of the San Jose Market Center and all that space from the old railyards would fit the Altamont alignment wonderfully. The Diridon station site would make a great railyard spur for HSR!Altamont Risingnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8419444332771213285.post-29359729610715450872010-05-11T13:09:39.960-07:002010-05-11T13:09:39.960-07:00They also make a huge amount of money from Califor...They also make a huge amount of money from California intermodale ports ..enough of the games they are playing with what is south of SJ a branch line local..Maby we need some of the do gooders about being "green" make UP electify the high volume ports to reduce the dirty UP engines if they dont want to work with CAHSRAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8419444332771213285.post-52811730563178792712010-05-11T05:13:36.804-07:002010-05-11T05:13:36.804-07:00If steep grades overcome only small elevation diff...If steep grades overcome only small elevation difference, they can be steep even for those slow freights because effective grade isn't that steep, it's just (front elevation - rear elevation) / train length. If trains are short, they're light and can be pulled without trouble, if they're long, only portion on the grade itself needs to be pulled uphill.<br /><br />Given the length of BART suburban sections, there's a question, why don't they use catenary there, probably with slightly higher voltage.<br /><br />As a reply to tram-train applicability in San Diego, Yonah Freemark <a href="http://www.thetransportpolitic.com/2010/04/29/san-diego-plans-extension-to-its-trolley-network-mostly-skipping-over-inner-city/#comment-42693" rel="nofollow">has replied</a> that FRA is willing to make it possible, so Caltrain and CHSRA should start searching another excuse for 2 + 2 arrangement.djasahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12048881502455652892noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8419444332771213285.post-80717545712906132342010-05-11T00:46:30.570-07:002010-05-11T00:46:30.570-07:00They're not talking about their Peninsula line...They're not talking about their Peninsula line here, but about the Coast Line section between San Jose and Gilroy. It's not a huge important mainline for UP, but it still gets decent use and is an important diversionary route connecting Northern and Southern California. And I think this is UP's way of politely saying "we're a multi-billion dollar corporation, and we don't appreciate your authority of 9 politicians and a pile of consultants making plans for railroads that don't belong to you".crzwdjkhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06394805356595604336noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8419444332771213285.post-55350147127947124192010-05-11T00:01:23.248-07:002010-05-11T00:01:23.248-07:00Off topic, but UP is coming out stronger than ever...Off topic, but UP is <a href="http://www.mercurynews.com/bay-area-news/ci_15058672" rel="nofollow">coming out stronger than ever against HSR</a>.<br /><br />"the high-speed rail project would severely hamper its shipping in the Bay Area and further south. Freight locomotives cannot operate when high-speed trains are running and the freight spurs off the main track could be jeopardized by the project."<br /><br />Are they making their freight business on the Peninsula sound like more than it really is or do they have a point?Spokkerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03244298044953214810noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8419444332771213285.post-91452478795698890822010-05-10T22:52:14.544-07:002010-05-10T22:52:14.544-07:00The RER doesn't have the straight A/B skip-sto...The RER doesn't have the straight A/B skip-stop pattern that is used in Chicago or Philadelphia (or on the J/Z) but it does have some trains that skip some stops. There are multiple stopping patterns on any trunk lines, and it's all quite complicated, but they have handy displays that show you which stations the next train will and will not stop at, which makes it at least slightly comprehensible. And really, the RER is what BART should have been. Then we wouldn't be having this discussion.crzwdjkhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06394805356595604336noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8419444332771213285.post-45295093941852630272010-05-10T21:17:26.088-07:002010-05-10T21:17:26.088-07:00I don't think the RER does skip-stop. I've...I don't think the RER does skip-stop. I've only seen schedules for the RER A and B; how it works is that there are a couple of cases where half the trains, going to one destination stop at some shared-trunk station, and half the trains, going to another destination, stop at the other. But those station pairs are sporadic; it's nothing like the regular alternation of the J/Z or the Broad Street Subway.Alon Levyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12195377309045184452noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8419444332771213285.post-56592313479210758772010-05-10T20:56:16.993-07:002010-05-10T20:56:16.993-07:00CTI: You're proposing seven tracks running the...CTI: You're proposing seven tracks running the length of the peninsula, doing a job that with the right technology could be done with four? And how exactly are commuter trains going to share three tracks with HSR without delaying it? And you're still going to build huge, gently sloping structures for your five-track grade separations to accommodate a trickle of freight trains?<br /><br />Thank you, CTI, for reminding us that things actually could be worse.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8419444332771213285.post-7003381792203367032010-05-10T20:41:06.029-07:002010-05-10T20:41:06.029-07:00Doesn't the RER do skip-stop on some sections?...Doesn't the RER do skip-stop on some sections?<br /><br />Not that this seems like a good idea, surely the dilution of frequency would slow journeys far more than the small increase in travel time from stopping.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.com