tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8419444332771213285.post5863102909233548728..comments2024-03-28T11:51:19.078-07:00Comments on Caltrain HSR Compatibility Blog: Electrification GroundedClemhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/01374282217135682245noreply@blogger.comBlogger36125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8419444332771213285.post-7923361393250081642010-04-23T13:13:21.546-07:002010-04-23T13:13:21.546-07:00The number of old dreadfully engineered lines remo...<em>The number of old dreadfully engineered lines removed from New Jersey over the years is enormous -- and that's before they started removing some of the *good* lines.</em><br /><br />Totally undocumented rumor... <br /><br />The Morris and Essex lines are where they are because of NIMBYs. The farmers in Clinton Township ( Today's Irvington and parts of western Newark ) didn't want the train coming through their farmland. The stagecoach company was against it too. <br /><br />The lovely little curves south of Elizabeth are there because someone didn't want to sell so they had to curve around... <br /><br />A few really stupid things still floating around too because of competition between the railroads.Adirondacker12800https://www.blogger.com/profile/17108712932656586797noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8419444332771213285.post-40379477882489978802010-04-22T11:48:57.348-07:002010-04-22T11:48:57.348-07:00Alon Levy wrote:
"Eastern US rail lines were ...Alon Levy wrote:<br />"Eastern US rail lines were built to fairly high standards early on, and the turn of the century-era cutoffs were built to even higher standards. They were double-tracked and supported speeds approaching 100 mph. It's the Western lines that were built on the cheap, due to low density."<br /><br />Well... not exactly. The early eastern rail lines were built in the pioneering days of railroads, when nobody knew what the hell they were doing (1830-1850 or so). This left us with some really dreadful alignments, and practically every rail line in New England is on one of these horrible curvy alignments, although they've been mildly improved over the centuries.<br /><br />The second stage of eastern rail lines, built from the 1850s onward, is the one which gave us all the well-engineered cutoffs. This also built the "eastern midwest" lines west of the Appalachians, and most of the lines south of the Mason-Dixon line (the old lines in that area having been largely destroyed in the Civil War).<br /><br />Then, the rail system was so overbuilt that the original rail lines were mostly dismantled outside New England (where few cutoffs were built due to high population density and early NIMBYs). The number of old dreadfully engineered lines removed from New Jersey over the years is enormous -- and that's before they started removing some of the *good* lines.neroden@gmailhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07475686367097445497noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8419444332771213285.post-27895697672427922772010-04-18T22:54:16.505-07:002010-04-18T22:54:16.505-07:00The RDC weighs 135,000 lbs., i.e. 61 metric tons, ...The RDC weighs <a href="http://www.winwaed.com/rail/TRE/tre.shtml" rel="nofollow">135,000 lbs.</a>, i.e. 61 metric tons, still a hair more than the 0 series.<br /><br />There's no question, the US railroads were technologically advanced back when Budd made the RDC. The knowledge was just forgotten over time: it was easier to conform to crippling regulations than to install PTC, which was what the FRA was trying to get the railroads to do, and nowadays the best technology that can be made in the US is 50 years out of date. (For reference, modern Japanese DMUs usually weigh less than 40 tons.)Alon Levyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12195377309045184452noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8419444332771213285.post-77475283765627236132010-04-18T14:25:54.744-07:002010-04-18T14:25:54.744-07:00Sadly, the 0 series weighs less than anything that...<em>Sadly, the 0 series weighs less than anything that's legal on FRA-regulated railroads today, unless you count the River Line DMUs.</em><br /><br />Don't forget the lines in Texas running the same DMUs give or take a model year and some extra steel around the fuel tank. I don't have the time to go look it up, how about Budd RDCs?Adirondacker12800https://www.blogger.com/profile/17108712932656586797noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8419444332771213285.post-20987475514740034292010-04-18T01:41:06.925-07:002010-04-18T01:41:06.925-07:00I doubt that that sort of shift has happened betwe...<i>I doubt that that sort of shift has happened between, say, any of the islands in Japan.</i><br /><br />Japan's population has always been centered in Honshu, but in recent decades it's gotten much more concentrated in the Tokyo-Nagoya-Osaka megalopolis.<br /><br /><i>As for the Northeast Corridor, whether or not it was better than most European railroads in the 50s, it was, and is, not a very typical US line, while Europe generally built their mainlines to a fairly high standard early on.</i><br /><br />Eastern US rail lines were built to fairly high standards early on, and the turn of the century-era cutoffs were built to even higher standards. They were double-tracked and supported speeds approaching 100 mph. It's the Western lines that were built on the cheap, due to low density. In that they weren't much different from the Trans-Siberian Railroad. The difference is that Russia has spent more money upgrading the Trans-Siberian in recent years, so that it's now fully electrified and two-thirds double-tracked.<br /><br /><i>Nobody would use the technology of the 0 series Shinkansen for that matter.</i><br /><br />Sadly, the 0 series weighs less than anything that's legal on FRA-regulated railroads today, unless you count the River Line DMUs.Alon Levyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12195377309045184452noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8419444332771213285.post-4922009880132005332010-04-18T00:44:50.913-07:002010-04-18T00:44:50.913-07:00It only went to the baggage room once, and that wa...It only went to the baggage room once, and that wasn't a scheduled stop.Adirondacker12800https://www.blogger.com/profile/17108712932656586797noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8419444332771213285.post-75482866447259537292010-04-17T18:45:56.572-07:002010-04-17T18:45:56.572-07:00The Congressional, the crack express train made th...<i>The Congressional, the crack express train made the trip between NY and DC in 3:35 according to my 1956 timetables.</i><br /><br />Is that trip measured to the bumper stop or to the basement baggage room? :-)Clemhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01374282217135682245noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8419444332771213285.post-56517290183342613882010-04-17T12:03:43.371-07:002010-04-17T12:03:43.371-07:00Alon: it's not about rural versus urban, it...Alon: it's not about rural versus urban, it's about the overall geographic spread of population relative to the total area of the country. In 1840, California has 15 times less population than New England, whereas now it has 2.5 times more. I doubt that that sort of shift has happened between, say, any of the islands in Japan. As for the Northeast Corridor, whether or not it was better than most European railroads in the 50s, it was, and is, not a very typical US line, while Europe generally built their mainlines to a fairly high standard early on. And England had 70 mph trains as early as 1848, while Japan didn't exceed that speed until the Shinkansen came about in the 1960s.crzwdjkhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06394805356595604336noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8419444332771213285.post-63474304667776151162010-04-17T10:21:53.614-07:002010-04-17T10:21:53.614-07:00True. However, they didn't use locomotives the...<em>True. However, they didn't use locomotives the weight of the GG1.</em><br /><br />Nobody uses locomotives the weight of the GG1 today. Nobody would use the technology of the GG1 today either. Nobody would use the technology of the 0 series Shinkansen for that matter. <br /><br />The Congressional, the crack express train made the trip between NY and DC in 3:35 according to my 1956 timetables. Slower than most of today's regionals.Adirondacker12800noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8419444332771213285.post-82212516544387636202010-04-17T02:45:51.523-07:002010-04-17T02:45:51.523-07:00True. However, they didn't use locomotives the...True. However, they didn't use locomotives the weight of the GG1.<br /><br />The Japanese population distribution has changed quite a lot, and keeps changing. The rural areas have depopulated, as people moved to the cities.Alon Levyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12195377309045184452noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8419444332771213285.post-36669102907811093132010-04-16T23:33:25.252-07:002010-04-16T23:33:25.252-07:00The Shinkansen started out as a way of applying Eu...<em>The Shinkansen started out as a way of applying European standards to rail construction in Japan, with standard gauge, shallow curves</em><br /><br />European trains in the 50s, which is when they began to plan the Shinkansen, were little better than Japanese trains. An argument could be made that they were using what is now called the Northeast Corridor as their prototype.Adirondacker12800noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8419444332771213285.post-77753153056022392962010-04-16T18:47:30.299-07:002010-04-16T18:47:30.299-07:00Alon: what I was trying to say is that the geograp...Alon: what I was trying to say is that the geographic center of population distribution hasn't moved much in Japan, whereas in America it has, and quite significantly. I'm sure rural California has a much higher population now than it did 100 years ago, and much of that population came over during the various waves of land speculation. And by the way, railroad infrastructure really is built somewhat differently in Japan compared to Europe. A random look around Google Maps and satellite view shows many more level crossings, and much less space separating rail lines from the surrounding houses. The Shinkansen started out as a way of applying European standards to rail construction in Japan, with standard gauge, shallow curves, and extensive grade separation, as opposed to Japan's low speed, curvy, narrow-gauge lines.crzwdjkhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06394805356595604336noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8419444332771213285.post-20424375179693796532010-04-16T01:25:28.789-07:002010-04-16T01:25:28.789-07:00Rural Japan has the same population as it did in 1...Rural Japan has the same population as it did in 1900. Greater Tokyo's grown by a factor of 10-20. Singapore and Hong Kong have also grown very quickly.Alon Levyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12195377309045184452noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8419444332771213285.post-5496223124492055342010-04-15T22:42:46.365-07:002010-04-15T22:42:46.365-07:00And indeed Japan does have a lot of differences in...And indeed Japan does have a lot of differences in the way some infrastructure is built: for example houses are built to last 30 years. As soon as you pay off your mortgage, you tear down the house because it's life-expired and start over with a new house and new mortgage. And another key difference is that Japan has more or less the same general distribution of population as it always had, as opposed to, say, California, whose population quadrupled in the decade between 1850 and 1860, and whose population was less than that of Manhattan in 1900, but is about 20 times bigger today.crzwdjkhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06394805356595604336noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8419444332771213285.post-38996473011391207542010-04-14T01:35:31.944-07:002010-04-14T01:35:31.944-07:00Arcady, I don't get the "Europe has been ...Arcady, I don't get the "Europe has been around for generations" bit. Japan hasn't been an industrialized country for longer than the US has; its pre-1850s history is feudal. Hong Kong and Singapore didn't even exist until the 19th century. You'd expect that countries like that would build shoddy infrastructure, but instead their growth has been investment-driven and entailed massive infrastructure investments.<br /><br />The bit about freight rail is only partly true. American railroads haul the lowest-value goods. If you count the value of the goods carried instead of ton-miles, American freight rail has a 4% modal share. Even if you go by ton-miles, the US is doing about as well as the other countries where geography makes trucking and coastal shipping infeasible: China, Russia, India, and Canada.Alon Levyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12195377309045184452noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8419444332771213285.post-61729207336170748702010-04-13T23:00:01.249-07:002010-04-13T23:00:01.249-07:00...aaaaand it's back up. No worries....aaaaand it's back up. No worries.Joeyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16406340564037825796noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8419444332771213285.post-12459267897347830482010-04-13T22:00:16.704-07:002010-04-13T22:00:16.704-07:00Oh huh yeah. I'd be surprised if it didn'...Oh huh yeah. I'd be surprised if it didn't come back up in a few hours though...Joeyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16406340564037825796noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8419444332771213285.post-72414631448893304482010-04-13T21:38:33.617-07:002010-04-13T21:38:33.617-07:009:30 at night and the official CAHSR website is co...9:30 at night and the official CAHSR website is completely inaccessible.Transparency!noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8419444332771213285.post-56178756885497649322010-04-13T21:01:57.075-07:002010-04-13T21:01:57.075-07:00"California, unlike Michigan, at least has th..."California, unlike Michigan, at least has the inherent attractiveness of its climate"<br /><br />Yeah, people can't handle being destitute *and* cold.Spokkerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03244298044953214810noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8419444332771213285.post-50532856124728132412010-04-13T18:28:34.350-07:002010-04-13T18:28:34.350-07:00I agree that it's best to be critical of claim...I agree that it's best to be critical of claims of America being "the best", and to be careful in trying to outdo the rest of the world, as the CA-HSR project is to some extent trying to do. But it's also important to recognize that this country does do some things well. One example is freight rail: the US has by far the biggest and most developed freight rail system in the world. Only Russia and China come remotely close, and Europe is trying as hard as they can to make their freight operations more like the US model. And, on the whole, the Northeast Corridor is not too bad either, compared to non-HSR lines in Europe. A top speed of 125 mph and level boarding are both relatively uncommon for intercity trains in Europe. So it's not all bad in this country.<br /><br />But I think the larger problem is that Europe has been around for generations, and is used to building infrastructure to last for generations, while the US has been a growing country, and has been building infrastructure and institutions for a much shorter time horizon, and to some extent they're predicated on continuing growth. California in particular has always been growing, and thus could afford to rely on a constant stream of newcomers to keep the state finances balanced. Now that the stream of newcomers is gone, the wheels are starting to come off the state budget process, and it remains to be seen if the state can move to a more sustainable model, or if it will become like the formerly prosperous Detroit and collapse on itself. I doubt that will happen though: California, unlike Michigan, at least has the inherent attractiveness of its climate.crzwdjkhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06394805356595604336noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8419444332771213285.post-54621994979373653622010-04-13T18:18:05.038-07:002010-04-13T18:18:05.038-07:00So what do we need to keep Caltrain alive? It does...So what do we need to keep Caltrain alive? It doesn't seem like all that much. I think a .1% sales tax in the 3 counties it serves would provide far more funding than Caltrain would even know what to do with.lyqwydhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13246339570684365095noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8419444332771213285.post-29114801557532915812010-04-13T14:46:22.178-07:002010-04-13T14:46:22.178-07:00@Spokker
Amen. It's hard to swallow the "...@Spokker<br /><br />Amen. It's hard to swallow the "we're the greatest nation on earth" pill when our infrastructure is literally falling apart in front of our eyes.<br /><br />To continue touting the USA as being the best at everything equates to becoming utterly complacent. As long as you say you're the best, you must be right?<br /><br />Open your eyes, Americans. Travel around a bit and see the rest of the first world. When you compare our healthcare, our transit, our education, our roadways, and our other infrastructure to the rest of the first world, we are *severely* lacking.<br /><br />Don't do us the disservice of saying we're the best in the world at everything when we're not. These problems will take action to fix. They need attention, money and time. Ignoring them will get us nowhere. <br /><br />Killing off peninsula rail is not a good place to start, even if HSR will eventually be built. Letting Caltrain die screws the 10s of thousands of peninsula commuters who use it every day. We need to secure the system's future with electrification. Without Caltrain, hwy 101 would get even uglier and anyone without a car would be screwed. <br /><br />And in 5 years, when oil prices will probably be even higher than in 2008, everyone will be clamoring "why isn't there any public transit on the peninsula??". Someone with a memory longer than that of a fruitfly (ie: longer than the average American's memory) will have to remind them that they let Caltrain die.spurfan15https://www.blogger.com/profile/01289593370311599800noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8419444332771213285.post-79004735314241405522010-04-12T18:17:09.288-07:002010-04-12T18:17:09.288-07:00As we see the nation and it's infrastructure f...As we see the nation and it's infrastructure falling apart and/or failing to be upgraded, it's easy to see that this is the United States of America. What's not easy to believe is how we really think we are the greatest country on Earth and put down other nations and their peoples. By many metrics we are among the worst in the first world.Spokkerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03244298044953214810noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8419444332771213285.post-73805243906966530212010-04-12T18:03:42.895-07:002010-04-12T18:03:42.895-07:00How about using a different approach. Get the Legi...How about using a different approach. Get the Legislature to exempt Caltrain electrification from CEQA as a jobs bill, and because what Caltrain does right now is irrelevant given that HSR is going to replace the entire infrastructure, anyway...Peterhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00326948451529910432noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8419444332771213285.post-17110166231618844762010-04-12T16:55:27.549-07:002010-04-12T16:55:27.549-07:00@ Caltrain last
Maybe you've never looked up ...@ Caltrain last<br /><br />Maybe you've never looked up the definition of the word "may". I highly suggest you do so.Peterhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00326948451529910432noreply@blogger.com