tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8419444332771213285.post7745324322204724186..comments2024-03-28T11:51:19.078-07:00Comments on Caltrain HSR Compatibility Blog: What Level Boarding?Clemhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/01374282217135682245noreply@blogger.comBlogger31125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8419444332771213285.post-58600670840355885522017-10-31T10:08:27.963-07:002017-10-31T10:08:27.963-07:00Nice clip showing the automated bridge plates Siem...Nice <a href="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FmNoU4P3cgA&feature=youtu.be&t=1m13s" rel="nofollow">clip showing the automated bridge plates</a> Siemens is building into Florida's <a href="https://gobrightline.com/trains/" rel="nofollow">Brightine trains</a> for level boarding.Reality Checkhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06974156676436895262noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8419444332771213285.post-20532128832310218572016-12-30T22:47:38.033-08:002016-12-30T22:47:38.033-08:00said "planning" being directed, for the...said "planning" being directed, for the lsat few years, by someone whose sole qualification for directing a multi-Billion-with-a-B engineering project, was... community outreach for a new BART station. (That may sound harsh, but it's a fact, an ineluctable fact).<br /><br />Do CalTrain employees do any actual quantitative planning; or do they pay contractors to do that on their behalf? (serious question) <br />Note, I exclude union work-rule compliance computations, from "planning".<br /><br />Clem, seriously: what degree of planning do you *expect* from the team who signed on the dotted line for CBOSS? (As if they'd never heard of the AATC fiasco. So much for hiring BART experience!)<br />kiwi.jonathanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/18215458981556481196noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8419444332771213285.post-33744825362116792212016-12-13T18:23:39.994-08:002016-12-13T18:23:39.994-08:00@Martin: not having the funding is no excuse for f...@Martin: not having the funding is no excuse for failure to make a detailed plan. Caltrain did plenty of planning for electrification before they amassed the funding. Right now it seems the dog has finally caught the mail truck, and is confused about what to do next.<br /><br />@William: not just a door, but also an automatic bridge plate to span a one-foot platform gap. There's no way that could ever pencil out other than as a clean sheet design.Clemhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01374282217135682245noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8419444332771213285.post-34120355841681578452016-12-13T16:42:22.898-08:002016-12-13T16:42:22.898-08:00I wonder how much it would take, or if it is possi...I wonder how much it would take, or if it is possible, to add a high-level door on each of the Caltrain's Bombardier cars...Williamhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14234802218858306443noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8419444332771213285.post-21869020484072437442016-12-12T22:11:25.793-08:002016-12-12T22:11:25.793-08:00Gotcha.... I somehow missed the Bombardier trippin...Gotcha.... I somehow missed the Bombardier tripping hazard in your initial email.<br /><br />I think the mismatch you illustrated above drivers the point forward the following:<br />* Level-boarding can't be done as part of electrification or EMU upgrade.<br />* Any level boarding to only 25" results in lost seating capacity of 96 seats per 6-car EMU set<br /><br />Level boarding needs to be to 50", which also leads to the following conclusion for Richard and others:<br />* The only way that Coast Daylight can work here is if they reserve an 8" platform at 4th & King. Else, it's not looking easy.<br />* Caltrain only plans to change 75% of fleet to EMU. Until that becomes 100%, we can't begin work on level boarding. Perhaps that is why Caltrain doesn't yet have a plan for level-boarding... Such a plan can't be executed at the current funding level.<br /><br />Martinnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8419444332771213285.post-9272331752959377832016-12-06T22:36:18.710-08:002016-12-06T22:36:18.710-08:00Plus ça change, plus c'est la même chose.Plus ça change, plus c'est la même chose.kiwi.jonathanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/18215458981556481196noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8419444332771213285.post-62406437509277947432016-12-05T07:38:19.320-08:002016-12-05T07:38:19.320-08:00You appear to have missed my point that 25" p...You appear to have missed my point that 25" platforms will not work with the Bombardier cars, will not work with the gallery cars, and will not work with the EMU cars as specified and ordered.Clemhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01374282217135682245noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8419444332771213285.post-17271336969275866992016-12-05T01:39:17.128-08:002016-12-05T01:39:17.128-08:00Regarding platform stuff.
50" level boardi...Regarding platform stuff. <br /><br />50" level boarding can't really begin construction at any existing stations until the EMU's fully replace both gallery and bombardier units.<br /><br />25" boarding "could" begin today since it would work with Gallery, Bombardier and EMUs... it's clearly a wasted effort if you're going to later transition to 50". <br /><br />However, in new stations that will still serve the diesel fleet - like the new Hillsdale station - they will enhance passenger convenience in the short term. Building a new station with 8" or 24" platform costs roughly the same. Martinnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8419444332771213285.post-77693971842629132052016-12-03T15:50:31.782-08:002016-12-03T15:50:31.782-08:00No matter how bad you think it is, there's alw...No matter how bad you think it is, there's always a way to make it better. If they want to do level boarding at 25" platforms in addition to 50" (and why not), they need to get the transition details right, and there needs to be a structurally and operationally feasible path towards ADA-compliant conductor-free unassisted level boarding at 25". We don't have bellhops in elevators anymore because all elevators have safe, gap-free level boarding, and that's what we should all be striving for.<br /><br />The cheapest way forward, in the relative sense of U.S.-transit-industrial-complex cheapness, would be to ask Stadler to add an automatic gap filler at 25" as well. And @Drunk, for all their smarts, Stadler will not do this unless asked by their customer. And their customer will not ask unless they understand the need.<br /><br />It's not all over; it's just the beginning. And yes, I am unapologetically cheerleading for level boarding, an improvement that I view as the most important thing Caltrain can possibly do after electrification.<br /><br />It's hard for an organization that has been pushing towards electrification since the 1990s (a quarter century!) to turn on a dime and strive for the next thing after that... they just didn't have their collective mind on what comes next, and probably still don't.Clemhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01374282217135682245noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8419444332771213285.post-8604073938671106832016-12-03T12:37:15.852-08:002016-12-03T12:37:15.852-08:00Clem, California High Speed Rail DOES NOT EXIST in...Clem, California High Speed Rail <b>DOES NOT EXIST</b> in any relevant fashion that affects anything other than the profits of PBQD and allied consultants.<br /><br />It doesn't exist on the Caltrain corridor, it's not going to exist in any relevant fashion (ie anything that doesn't bolster the profits of PBQD and allied consultants, perhaps including useless and unused isolated stranded high floor platforms at massive centres of activity like Millbrae Interglactic and San Jose Pandimensional.)<br /><br />I'm not the one "wishing away constraints". You're the one bending over for the ones that somebody else -- somebody dreaming of great successes like SEPTA or MBTA Commuter Railroading -- dreamed up out of nothing, purely for their own corporate profit.<br /><br />Caltrain with its idiot multi-door narrow-body bi-level EMUs (running hourly or worse off-peak, stopping at Atherton and Hayward Park, <b>never providing level boarding at any height, ever</b>) is MBTA with pantographs on top, or SEPTA with double-deckers. It's got nothing at all to do with imaginary HSR in any way. It's all about <b>North East Corridor Commuter Railroading.</b><br /><br />It's all over. Trap doors! Assisted boarding! LTK Engineering Services dictating rolling stock and operating practices forever and ever and ever and ever. They got exactly what they wanted. There will never be quick dwell times, Taktverkehr, low (or even <i>lower</i>) operating costs, level boarding, none of it. They've made this as clear as anybody possibly could. Why are you cheerleading for this?<br />Richard Mlynarikhttp://www.pobox.com/users/mlynoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8419444332771213285.post-43208443889615297422016-12-02T22:18:53.163-08:002016-12-02T22:18:53.163-08:00@Richard, your argument would make perfect sense i...@Richard, your argument would make perfect sense if HSR didn't actually exist or if low-floor high-speed trains were actually prevalent. You're basically wishing away some constraints of the problem.Clemhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01374282217135682245noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8419444332771213285.post-73620604658280820852016-12-02T19:28:54.616-08:002016-12-02T19:28:54.616-08:00CalTrain operates under FRA rules. As does Metroli...CalTrain operates under FRA rules. As does Metrolink. And so will CA HSR, when it rns on FRA-controlled track (which may include HRS-only track; I don't recall for sure.)<br /><br />Caltrains waiver still require Caltrain to put US-freight grab rails on their rolling stock. And, infmaously, to paint an (F) for (front) on the front of their "locomotive" EMUs. kiwi.jonathanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/18215458981556481196noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8419444332771213285.post-70594368045638779432016-12-02T17:00:12.698-08:002016-12-02T17:00:12.698-08:00Minnesota is on the East Coast? Minnesota is on the East Coast? Adirondacker12800https://www.blogger.com/profile/17108712932656586797noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8419444332771213285.post-5878743302957065882016-12-02T13:36:27.279-08:002016-12-02T13:36:27.279-08:00You make some great arguments but you really throw...You make some great arguments but you really throw your credibility in the crapper with your repeated hyperbolic statements wishing death upon people. Come on.orulznoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8419444332771213285.post-68429091776942616172016-12-02T10:25:23.707-08:002016-12-02T10:25:23.707-08:00"Building to 50" makes no sense, except ..."Building to 50" makes no sense, except in places ..."<br /><br />Building to 50 inches makes no sense for any non-metro rail line anywhere in the USA west of the narrow strip of Democratic-voting eastern seaboard states, and then only in a small part of those.<br /><br />It's <b>bat shit insane</b> in California, unless you happen to be LTK/PTG/PBQD/etc and the only "railroad" you have any familiarity of any sort of with is the North East Corridor, your <b>sole</b> aim is to maximize costs, and you have total contempt for quality of outcome.<br /><br /><b>High speed rail is not happening in California</b>. "Compatibility" (not just with a tail wagging the dog, but an imaginary tail) is a bullshit "requirement".<br /><br />The correct platform height for High Speed Rail in California (which is not coming before 2050, or later!) is in the 500-760mm range. Oh, <a href="http://www.talgo.com/es/material-rodante/muy-alta-velocidad/avril/" rel="nofollow">and look what's cheapest and level boards at 760mm with 2+3 seating in a 3200mm wide body</a>.<br /><br />The correct platform height for the Caltrain corridor always has been and always been in the 500-760mm range.<br /><br />Enjoy your dual door EMUs, costing 50% above the going rate, larded to hell with outright LTK-profiting fraud "requirements", to be service delayed for years due to "unexpected" CBOSS compatibility problems, running at hour headways, stopping at Broadway and Atherton and Hayward Park, carrying three conductors, and not providing level boarding at any height at any location, ever.<br /><br />Death is too kind a fate for anybody involved.Richard Mlynarikhttp://www.pobox.com/users/mlynoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8419444332771213285.post-11450230966098038242016-12-01T20:31:46.947-08:002016-12-01T20:31:46.947-08:00Building to 50" makes no sense, except in pla...Building to 50" makes no sense, except in places where Caltrain is sharing platforms with HSR (which for all practical purposes is only at the TTT). Providing access through the lower door means wheelchairs/bikes/etc don't have to deal with the internal stairs and lift. I am sure Stadler can figure out a solution to the platform gap issue.Drunk Engineerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08818695817782985523noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8419444332771213285.post-76776688517971083242016-12-01T19:10:49.314-08:002016-12-01T19:10:49.314-08:00Anything above 8" would require waiver of CPU...Anything above 8" would require waiver of CPUC General Order 26-DClemhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01374282217135682245noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8419444332771213285.post-13412463565827350832016-12-01T14:09:15.615-08:002016-12-01T14:09:15.615-08:00Caltrain should focus its effort on securing funds...Caltrain should focus its effort on securing funds to exercise the EMU option, in order to facilitate earlier retirement of the Gallery & Bombardier cars. Re-building the platforms first to 25" then to 50" does not help level-boarding nor is cheap.<br /><br />The question then is to what should the platform height be on the stations that potentially will go into construction in the next few years, such as the new Hillsdale, South San Francisco, etc... They most likely need to be at 16" ATOR, as indicated in Clem's diagram, but with provision to be raised to 50".Williamhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14234802218858306443noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8419444332771213285.post-67009918950217428582016-11-30T10:56:54.549-08:002016-11-30T10:56:54.549-08:00Brake test is not required for BART system as this...Brake test is not required for BART system as this is not under FRA. <br />Will HSR and electrified Caltrain still need break test?Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8419444332771213285.post-80133895555784940302016-11-30T09:47:38.651-08:002016-11-30T09:47:38.651-08:00Actually, this "orange anus" supports Hi...Actually, this "orange anus" supports High Speed Rail, so he falls outside party lines on that point. Here is my source http://time.com/4247162/donald-trump-trains-infrastructure/DoctorDothrakihttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04733370881962832513noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8419444332771213285.post-72354749092191914852016-11-29T23:44:14.075-08:002016-11-29T23:44:14.075-08:00Clem,
You may well delete this comment; feel free...Clem,<br />You may well delete this comment; feel free.<br /><br />I read your opening post as based on a assumption: namely, that the Caltrain staff have both the understanding, and the desirel, to create a well-organised, coherent transportation system. From the current system, to "blended", to .. whatever comes after that.<br /><br />Now, this will sound like I;m going full-on Richard Mlyarnik. But just *look* at the cunstruction fencing on the northeast side of El Camino Real and Holly St in San Carlos. The exact spot where shoo-fly tracks *have* to go, for any non-trivial change to the San Carlos station.<br /><br />Then, look at the embedded-in-160-of-concere curve a San Bruno. Fixed at 65 mi/hr forevermore.<br /><br />Is that assumption=, about understanding and will, warranted? I don't know. I sincerely hope so, but the evidence doesn't point that way.<br /><br /><br />You write later: "What is the vision? Is there even a vision?"<br />Who do you think would have that vision? Someone whose prime (only) qualification, was ... community-outreach for a new BART station. What "vision" would you expect?<br /><br />To be clear, I don't question the goodwill of people at CalTrain. But there does seem to be an issue with "connecting the dots"/ At a level where careful attention to high-school physics should suffice. (Pre-calculus physics, where I went to high school.)<br /><br />I don't expect CalTrain staff to read Paechl's text. But Caltrain staff are making multi-billion-dollar engineering decisions. Personally, I wouldn't trust them to change the oil in my car. Would you? What does your answer say about those multi-billion dollar decisions?<br />kiwi.jonathanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/18215458981556481196noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8419444332771213285.post-83427000657960394692016-11-29T22:40:31.856-08:002016-11-29T22:40:31.856-08:00To misquote Clem....
Why pay to do something once...To misquote Clem....<br /><br />Why pay to do something once, when you can pay for it twice?<br /><br /><br />kiwi.jonathanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/18215458981556481196noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8419444332771213285.post-56549643838027418082016-11-29T22:37:57.520-08:002016-11-29T22:37:57.520-08:00And does BART do this 8 trains/hr with coupling/de...And does BART do this 8 trains/hr with coupling/decoupling, under FRA rules that require full-train Westinghouse brake tests after coupling/decoupling? I mean, all trains use only Westinghouse brakes, don' they (sarcasm)<br /><br />(I don't know of such rules firsthand, but Ive read them here and on That Other Blog, from people who I trust)kiwi.jonathanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/18215458981556481196noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8419444332771213285.post-63461255718163351742016-11-29T20:04:50.109-08:002016-11-29T20:04:50.109-08:00There is no way to keep the Bombardier cars during...There is no way to <a href="http://caltrain-hsr.blogspot.com/2014/09/compatibility-done-backwards.html" rel="nofollow">keep the Bombardier cars during the platform height transition</a>, because of the same fatal flaw pointed out above for the EMUs. Besides, the value of Caltrain's entire Bombardier fleet is a tiny rounding error next to the modernization budget. When the time comes, sell!<br /><br />Since the Bombardier cars are only being retained for express service, with the EMUs being pressed into service on the stop-and-go locals, one way to approach this is to convert all the non-express platforms first, where Bombardier cars do not call.<br /><br />One small improvement that Caltrain could make is to craft a new strategic plan, since their <a href="http://www.caltrain.com/Assets/__Agendas+and+Minutes/JPB/Board+of+Directors/Presentations/2016/2016-11-03+JPB+BOD+Caltrain+Planning+Initiatives.pdf" rel="nofollow">existing initiatives</a> are woefully inadequate and uncoordinated. What will Caltrain do next and what will it do for riders? What is the vision? Is there even a vision?Clemhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01374282217135682245noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8419444332771213285.post-67331361985565716922016-11-29T11:23:10.154-08:002016-11-29T11:23:10.154-08:00Clem, this is extreme case. Here in US, we can sti...Clem, this is extreme case. Here in US, we can still archive 30~50% of such extreme case. BART (Fremont and Richmond) handles turn around of 8 train/h plus coupling/decoupling just with 2 tracks. <br />Considering conflict between arrival/departure, does Caltrain (~6train/h) still need more than 2 tracks?Anonymousnoreply@blogger.com