tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8419444332771213285.post6499370150881145945..comments2024-03-25T08:35:51.364-07:00Comments on Caltrain HSR Compatibility Blog: Earthquakes and TerroristsClemhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/01374282217135682245noreply@blogger.comBlogger50125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8419444332771213285.post-933707103704233132009-12-06T20:07:12.738-08:002009-12-06T20:07:12.738-08:00@Drunk Engineer: Agreed and I don't think we s...@Drunk Engineer: Agreed and I don't think we should have it, the cost/risk just doesn't make sense, I agree with the general consensus here that preventing a derailed train from causing damage to itself and it's surroundings is a far better use of funds. My only point was that even in the most passenger-unfriendly security theater of Eurostar, the inconvenience to the passenger is far lower than it is at your typical airport.Unknownhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08878685680339441795noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8419444332771213285.post-86694852848642573752009-12-06T16:30:42.369-08:002009-12-06T16:30:42.369-08:00Andy,
There are a large number of potential Europe...Andy,<br />There are a large number of <i>potential</i> European capitals that Eurostar could be serving -- if it were not for the costs of security theater. Building (and operating) hermetically-sealed international terminals with passport and border control is not cost-effective for relatively infrequent service.Drunk Engineerhttp://systemicfailure.wordpress.comnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8419444332771213285.post-69944070263705564822009-12-06T15:29:23.890-08:002009-12-06T15:29:23.890-08:00@Bianca: even the much maligned Eurostar security ...@Bianca: even the much maligned Eurostar security screening is far, far simpler and easier than airport security. I haven't ridden it out of the new St. Pancras station, but when I rode it out of Waterloo in '03 at the height of the airport ridiculousness, I didn't have to even slow from a walking pace as I went through the scanners: bag on belt, scan ticket, walk through, pick up bag, keep walking. And that's supposedly the most elaborate and painful security screening of any HSR system anywhere.Unknownhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08878685680339441795noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8419444332771213285.post-43156842468784597982009-12-06T03:18:29.403-08:002009-12-06T03:18:29.403-08:00I should add that in Israel, secure platforms mean...I should add that in Israel, secure platforms mean the same as in Japan: you need to show a ticket to get to the platforms. And that's in a country that's infamous for its airport cavity searches and for its bag searches at shopping malls.Alon Levyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12195377309045184452noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8419444332771213285.post-12190770679040754192009-12-05T12:44:01.219-08:002009-12-05T12:44:01.219-08:00In the United States, one can reasonably argue tha...<i>In the United States, one can reasonably argue that our foreign policy could make high speed rail a more attractive target for terrorism than in any other country where HSR exists.</i><br /><br />Except that foreign policy isn't the only excuse for terrorism. For example, both Spain and the UK have had lengthy and deadly histories with ETA and the IRA, respectively. <br /><br />In the two countries where I've ridden on high speed rail, Japan and Spain, "secure platforms" means that you have to have a ticket to have access to the platform. That's it. Spain does a <b>very</b> perfunctory baggage screening- you put your bags on the conveyor belt, walk around and pick them up on the other side. No long lines. No need to show ID. No metal detector to walk through, no emptying of pockets, no taking off your shoes, no taking laptops out for inspection. We had our son in his stroller and just wheeled him through, they didn't have us put the stroller through the x-ray or anything. <br /><br />"Secure Platform" doesn't have to automatically mean "ridiculous security theater." <br /><br />I know a lot of people love to hate Quentin Kopp, but he's on the record that a lack of security theater is one of the things that will make High Speed Rail seriously competitive with air travel, and Obama has made cracks about not having to take your shoes off, so it's not a given that the security theater proponents will get their way.Biancahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00660718116529125977noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8419444332771213285.post-49355067172426214752009-12-05T12:15:41.517-08:002009-12-05T12:15:41.517-08:00http://www.insidebayarea.com/sanmateocountytimes/l...http://www.insidebayarea.com/sanmateocountytimes/localnews/ci_13932398?source=rss<br /><br />Timely.. Just think of all the new DATA that will be in the next Program EIR...Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8419444332771213285.post-16615560210934324412009-12-04T22:29:05.405-08:002009-12-04T22:29:05.405-08:00So they have good data (instead of thumbs in the a...So they have good data (instead of thumbs in the air), to bring to the table, on which to base a route decision?Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8419444332771213285.post-21306489597868686042009-12-04T19:21:08.461-08:002009-12-04T19:21:08.461-08:00If the judge expected them to make significant cha...If the judge expected them to make significant changes to the EIR, why would he have allowed planning to continue?Joeyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16406340564037825796noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8419444332771213285.post-53533354656011322902009-12-04T16:41:05.418-08:002009-12-04T16:41:05.418-08:00Forwarded and modified, from a few thoughts I post...Forwarded and modified, from a few thoughts I posted earlier on PAO:<br /><br />Supporters continue to contend that the redo on the EIR is minor - Kopp suggested in CHSRA board meeting yesterday that the resubmission would be limited to a total of 2 comments regarding vibration, and updates to the small (36 mile!) stretch between SJ and Gilroy. What supporters fail to acknowledge, or perhaps fail to grasp is that the entire EIR has been rescinded, not just portions, and the reasons don't really matter. The FACT is that the ENTIRE (SF to Central Valley) EIR is rescinded, and along with it, the route selection (100<br />% of 08-01)<br /><br />The new EIR needs to be submitted to the public and rerouted through the review and approval process in its entirety. They might WISH they could just update a few paragraphs but more than 1 year and a half has passed since July 2008. And along with that year and a half - a whole lot of data and information has been added to the CHSRA's knowledge base.<br /><br />And the judge in his infinite wisdom allowed CHSRA to continue with PROJECT LEVEL investigation - much more detailed than even the original program EIR. So, fast forward to X months from now when they resubmit the EIR for public review - do you think they can get away with 'information unknown until further investigation', or out of date data on ANY part of the document where new data is now available? They've had engineers working on this for 18 months - are we to believe they have no new information on ANY subject other than UPRR from SJ to Gilroy? <br /><br />(As a minor example, just think of all the new sound impact data that was learned when Caltrain moved their horns a couple months ago)<br /><br />Nope, they'll have all kinds of new technical and cost data, (in fact they'll have an entirely new business plan by then!). <br /><br />They MUST bring the entirety of known data and information they have gathered since July2008 into the new document. Otherwise how can they legally and justifiably certify a document known to contain ommissions and out-of-date data?Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8419444332771213285.post-43898630706065543462009-12-04T16:04:57.970-08:002009-12-04T16:04:57.970-08:00Other countries haven't had terrorist attacks ...<em>Other countries haven't had terrorist attacks against their transport networks?</em> <br /><br />The US has had them as far back as the Civil War. We haven't had any on high speed rail because we don't have any high speed rail.Adirondacker12800noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8419444332771213285.post-63123443621284715172009-12-04T15:41:56.877-08:002009-12-04T15:41:56.877-08:00The only reason we haven't seen bad things hap...The only reason we haven't seen bad things happen to high speed trains is a combination of good engineering and plenty of good luck.<br /><br />The former can be practiced and built upon; the latter is bound to run out.<br /><br />That's all I have to say.Richard Mlynarikhttp://www.pobox.com/users/mly/noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8419444332771213285.post-65864451627097211792009-12-04T13:05:26.416-08:002009-12-04T13:05:26.416-08:00@Richard
US domestic ballasted track and US domes...@Richard<br /><br /><i>US domestic ballasted track and US domestic tunnels and US domestic bridges have different risk profiles from the domestic civil engineering artifacts of places with different foreign policies.</i><br /><br />Other countries haven't had terrorist attacks against their transport networks?Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8419444332771213285.post-67974684744772420192009-12-04T10:12:12.266-08:002009-12-04T10:12:12.266-08:00@ anon @ 22:59 -
btw, the south of France is actu...@ anon @ 22:59 -<br /><br />btw, the south of France is actually considered a region at moderate risk of earthquakes.<br /><br />Italy, another country with a growing HSR network, has experienced <a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Italy_earthquake" rel="nofollow">lots of earthquakes</a> in recent memory, some in the 6.9-7.2 range.<br /><br />China, Taiwan and Turkey also have HSR tracks in seismically active zones. Southern Spain and Portugal are also at risk.<br /><br />These existing implementations means there are many relevant real world data examples in addition to Japan. CHSRA should study all of them for the best way to minimize earthquake risks to passengers, staff and infrastructure at acceptable financial cost.Rafaelhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05471957286484454765noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8419444332771213285.post-86473143196368598912009-12-04T09:47:52.523-08:002009-12-04T09:47:52.523-08:00@ anon @ 22:59 -
there has been a grand total of ...@ anon @ 22:59 -<br /><br />there has been a grand total of one derailment of a shinkansen as a result of an earthquake, and even that did not result in fatalities or even serious injuries.<br /><br />It's important to recognize that earthquakes do pose a real risk, but also to quantify that risk realistically. The same applies to terrorism.<br /><br />Providing maximum protection against extremely unlikely events is nose-bleed expensive and may reduce the utility of the system. There needs to be more public discussion of the level of risk California residents are willing to accept vs. voters' willingness to pay for risk mitigation.<br /><br />Ideally, CHSRA would present the state legislature with two or three trade-off alternatives in this context to establish a guideline for project-level environmental analysis and subsequent engineering.<br /><br />---<br /><br />Finally, don't forget that there is a non-zero risk of derailment related to earthquakes or terrorism today. If a major quake were to hit e.g. the Bay Area, it's conceivable a BART train could careen off an aerial. The Transbay Tube could crack and flood. A UPRR Mission Bay Hauler could plough into Palo Alto High. <br /><br />In 1995, an Amtrak train derailed in <a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1995_Palo_Verde,_Arizona_derailment" rel="nofollow">Palo Verde, AZ</a> after tracks were sabotaged. The FBI later concluded this was an attempted freight train robbery that was merely made to look like an act of right-wing domestic terrorism. However, the episode did highlight the vulnerability of the nation's railroad network to real terrorist groups, regardless of providence or agenda.<br /><br />Such horror scenarios are of course extremely unlikely. My point is they are possible and, people are evidently willing to live with that risk today.Rafaelhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05471957286484454765noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8419444332771213285.post-61268656061607220142009-12-04T09:33:45.829-08:002009-12-04T09:33:45.829-08:00And because that's the way Amtrak already oper...<em>And because that's the way Amtrak already operates in the Sacred North East Corridor, with restricted access to platforms, holding pens in mezzanines, government ID checks, etc.</em><br /><br />The NEC is vaguely like that at the major terminals, Union Station in DC, Penn Station in NYC and South Station in Boston. The only thing I can think of that resembles a holding pen is Club Acela. I guess it could be called one since it contains the whining first class and business class passengers and the occasional Continental passenger. The "strongest" containment I can think of is the fare control between PATH and the conventional platforms in Newark. Horrors! you have to swipe your Metrocard...Adirondacker12800noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8419444332771213285.post-33230122460411074312009-12-03T22:59:05.363-08:002009-12-03T22:59:05.363-08:00SNCF does not operate in earthquake country. Eart...SNCF does not operate in earthquake country. Earthquakes would be the most likely cause of a high-speed derailment. See Japan.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8419444332771213285.post-81083036852611645692009-12-03T20:39:10.120-08:002009-12-03T20:39:10.120-08:00Clem:
This is a dumb generalization for several r...Clem:<br /><br /><i>This is a dumb generalization for several reasons: (1) the ICE accident occurred on "low-speed" (200 km/h) ballasted track, and (2) there is no statistical link between slab track and fatalities, and (3) the statistics of extremely rare events do not mathematically support direct ("two orders of magnitude") comparisons.</i><br /><br />I'm not claiming slab track causes accidents. I'm claiming that Richard is wrong to state that slab track is the only safe way of constructing high-speed lines. It's not, and SNCF's record proves this.Alon Levyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12195377309045184452noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8419444332771213285.post-30137484051508411842009-12-03T17:26:59.820-08:002009-12-03T17:26:59.820-08:00This is precisely why UPRR doesn't want to sha...This is precisely why UPRR doesn't want to share its own ROW with HSR. They are worried about the liability of their freight dumping onto HSR tracks.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8419444332771213285.post-83869242936919844912009-12-03T16:53:58.737-08:002009-12-03T16:53:58.737-08:00The significant life safety risks on a grade separ...The significant life safety risks on a grade separated rail system are<br /><br />1. head-on, read-end and flanking train-train collisions. The risk of this is ~0% by virtual of correctly specified and implemented existing signal technology.<br /><br />2. fire, especially in constricted environments (tunnels, trenches)<br /><br />3. derailment into lineside obstacles<br /><br />4. derailment into other rail traffic.<br /><br />It makes a great deal of sense to analyze which of these, and under which scenarios, pose the highest risk in the context of California, and to engineer the system – where "engineering" always includes price performance consciousness – to minimize cumulative risk.<br /><br />Are we likely to see sense emanating from CHSRA?<br /><br />Is train derailment into opposing traffic a non-negligible risk? What are the plausible scenarios to cause such an event? Is "uncontrolled" passenger access to platforms likely to cause a train to derail and to cause it to with another train or a structure? Are there other more likely scenarios? Is track ("trackway") design to contain derailment an effective and justifiable approach? Are there other, more effective, cheaper, ways of maximizing overall system safety -- including the safety that comes from not making train travel less attractive than driving or airline travel? Is anybody going to do any objective analysis, or are we just going to go with preconceptions?<br /><br /><br />PS Marginally-maintained (that's an economic fact) freight trains are far more likely to derail or to dump (euphemistically, "shift") their loads into the path of other traffic than passenger trains maintained under contract to guaranteed levels of availability. Just say no!Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8419444332771213285.post-9992197343358229002009-12-03T16:33:07.660-08:002009-12-03T16:33:07.660-08:00In the NEC, access to platforms is, for the most p...In the NEC, access to platforms is, for the most part, not very restricted. Sure, at NY Penn, they make you line up, but you can always go via the mezzanine and avoid all that. Access is controlled at Boston South Station, but free at Back Bay, Providence, and the rest of the stations to NYC. Newark, Trenton, etc. are shared with commuter rail and thus open as well. ID checks are done rarely and they don't much care if the name matches what's on the ticket.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8419444332771213285.post-63711713259539342642009-12-03T13:01:47.330-08:002009-12-03T13:01:47.330-08:00Why do I suppose CHSRA will have security theater?...Why do I suppose CHSRA will have security theater?<br /><br />Ummm... because they've said they will. "Secure platforms".<br /><br />And because we already have the full fascist apparatus of internal travel passports in place and there's no way in hell an agency like our Vaterlandsverkehrsicherhietdiesnt is going to reduce the scope of its operations.<br /><br />And because plans for Transbay already include "HSR screening".<br /><br />And because even today the quasi-fascist government won't let you travel from Oakland to Sacramento <i>on Amtrak</i> today without Official ID, to be inspected by tin-pot self-important Amtrak feather-bedded conductors.<br /><br />And because that's the way Amtrak already operates in the Sacred North East Corridor, with restricted access to platforms, holding pens in mezzanines, government ID checks, etc.<br /><br />What <i>possible chance</i> is that HSR train and platform access could be made either of fast or convenient in our environment?<br /><br />That's Not The Way We Do Things Around Here.Richard Mlynarikhttp://www.pobox.com/users/mly/noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8419444332771213285.post-8581630727035612382009-12-03T04:22:10.643-08:002009-12-03T04:22:10.643-08:00@ Drunk Engineer -
see this map for the names and...@ Drunk Engineer -<br /><br />see this <a href="http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/c/cf/Flat_eq_map_anotated.png" rel="nofollow">map</a> for the names and locations of Northern California faults.<br /><br />Basically, there's no way to run tracks out of the Bay Area without having to worry about fault lines. Pick your poison.<br /><br />The Altamont routes all involve four crossings plus sections parallel to the San Andreas and/or Hayward faults. They also all feature tunnels both through parts of Altamont Pass itself plus a long one between Pleasanton and Niles.<br /><br />The Pacheco route runs parallel to the San Andreas and Calaveras faults for many miles, before heading east near where they converge. The tracks will have to cross the lesser-known Ortigalita fault near the San Luis Reservoir, though it's not yet clear if they will do so at or above grade. The engineers still have to optimize the lateral alignment using the Australian Quantm software and there are other factors - especially underground aquifers - that must be taken into account as well.<br /><br />Drill into one of those and you could end up draining or polluting a major source of fresh water for farmers in the especially arid south-western part of the Central Valley. Case in point: shoddy prep work by geologists and tunneling engineers near <a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DP08WcEc5CQ" rel="nofollow">Valle del Abdelajis</a> on the Madrid-Malaga AVE line in Spain. The video is in Spanish, but it should be self-explanatory. HSR is great and all, but if this were to be repeated in Pacheco Pass, Los Banos would become a ghost town very quickly.Rafaelhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05471957286484454765noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8419444332771213285.post-78885129143811537892009-12-03T03:46:01.302-08:002009-12-03T03:46:01.302-08:00@ PeakVT -
thx for the info on grade-separated LG...@ PeakVT -<br /><br />thx for the info on grade-separated LGVs vs. legacy tracks with grade separations. I guess that means SNCF is keen to offer single-seat rides to wherever there's demand, even if it means running expensive HSR rolling stock at standard speed (well, standard for France at any rate) and exposing it to accident risks.Rafaelhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05471957286484454765noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8419444332771213285.post-70911584598999574602009-12-03T03:43:30.875-08:002009-12-03T03:43:30.875-08:00@ insulation, Andy Duncan -
there's regular s...@ insulation, Andy Duncan -<br /><br />there's regular slab track, which is very stiff and therefore needs to be constructed to tight tolerances on well-prepared subsoil. Ballast track stiffness is on the order of the trains' suspension systems, so those (and the axles and wheels) are not as severely stressed as on slab track that has settled.<br /><br />The primary advantage of slab track is that it sharply reduces the dead load on aerial structures. Another (claimed) advantage is that it is essentially maintenance-free and can support medium freight trains at night on tracks that are used for HSR during the day. That supposedly justifies the higher up-front cost. However, some experts suspect DB's preference for using slab track for time-separated mixed traffic may have contributed to its problems with premature fatigue in ICE3 and ICE-TD axles.<br /><br />There's also vibration-isolated slab track, basically a slab on top of an elastic layer on top of the stiff subsoil. This reduces stress on train suspension systems, much like ballast track does. In spite of the steep price tag, it is sometimes used for tunnels that run close to residential housing that is already exposed to other severe environmental impacts.<br /><br />Example: the new HSR tracks in the lower Inn Valley in Tyrolia, Austria. Eventually, those will connect to the new Brenner base tunnel, which will feature regular slab track.<br /><br />In the vicinity of known earthquake faults, slab track might well be the only way to deliver sufficient lateral stiffness both before and after a derailment. There are long stretches in the Central Valley where ballast track can probably be used, though. I wonder if the UC Berkeley 3D shake table has ever been used to model the interactions of rail cars and track during an earthquake.Rafaelhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05471957286484454765noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8419444332771213285.post-55467400081019107322009-12-02T23:17:06.914-08:002009-12-02T23:17:06.914-08:00Re Eurostar: I think the reason why Eurostar has t...Re Eurostar: I think the reason why Eurostar has that security theatre is mostly because the UK isn't party to the Schengen agreement, so they have to conduct passport checks. So they check passport prior to boarding to prevent a stowaway sneaking in.<br />If CA's system has security theatre I will barf. Talk about stupid, seeing as there's no reasonable way to both create an effective screening process while also maintaining throughput/passenger happiness.<br />And there's nothing stopping any serious terrorist from just dropping a bomb on a train from an overpass.<br /><br />Re earthquakes: c'est la vie.<br />Really. It's California. They happen. And the impact of an earthquake shouldn't be any greater than the impact on freeways and bridgesAnonymoosenoreply@blogger.com