tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8419444332771213285.post6456432288165806328..comments2024-03-17T12:42:36.234-07:00Comments on Caltrain HSR Compatibility Blog: Focus on: Mountain ViewClemhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/01374282217135682245noreply@blogger.comBlogger72125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8419444332771213285.post-21522063749859199002010-01-25T13:37:15.680-08:002010-01-25T13:37:15.680-08:00Slick. I like it.
It even opens up the possibili...Slick. I like it.<br /><br />It even opens up the possibility of future VTA expansion in a potentially useful direction, which was previously impossible.neroden@gmailhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07475686367097445497noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8419444332771213285.post-12059078126498461492010-01-10T16:40:17.521-08:002010-01-10T16:40:17.521-08:00The Chicago numbers you give include all rail tran...The Chicago numbers you give include all rail transit; the Bay Area numbers exclude Muni. There may also be higher bus ridership in the Bay Area because of the bottlenecks around SF - I can't find data either way right now.<br /><br />Also, the Chicago numbers include almost all of the 9.5 million people in the metro area. The Bay Area numbers don't; excluding Caltrain, whose current ridership is a rounding error, all transit is included in the five-county MSA.Alon Levyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12195377309045184452noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8419444332771213285.post-39021963255293227172010-01-09T11:34:57.979-08:002010-01-09T11:34:57.979-08:00There's still farmland between Chicago and Joi...There's still farmland between Chicago and Joilet. It's being swallowed by exurbia but there's still farmland. <br /><br />Using round numbers, Chicagoland has 9.5 million people. 2.8 million of them live in Chicago itself. 5.2 million of them live in Cook County. 28 percent of the households in Chicago do not have an automobile. Can't find numbers easily for Cook County. <br /><br />Using round numbers, the Bay Area has 7.3 million. 800,000 people live in San Francisco itself. 28 percent of the households in San Francisco are carfree, 19 percent in Oakland, 17 percent in Berkeley.<br /><br />For comparsion sake it's 27 percent in Yonkers, NY, 19 percent in Gary, IN., 16 percent in Los Angeles. <br /><br />Much rounder numbers. If a third of the people in Chicagoland live in Chicago and a third of the households in Chicago live car free 10 percent of the households in Chicagoland live carfree. They aren't walking everywhere. They are using the bus and the El to get around. What's the carfree percentage in the Bay Area? ... it's going to be lower.<br /><br />Still with nice round numbers. The El carries 600,000 passengers every day. Or 6% of the population. BART carries 5%. Metra carries 150,000 a day or 1.5% of the population. CTA buses carry a million people a day. <br /><br />...so with 30-35% more population Chicago has 50% more riders on the El than on BART and Metra has 400% more riders than Caltrain. There's something wrong with 11%. Or there's something wrong with 14%.Adirondacker12800noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8419444332771213285.post-64148723541588729312010-01-08T20:03:58.966-08:002010-01-08T20:03:58.966-08:00Chicago-Naperville-Joliet is an MSA, not a CSA. Th...Chicago-Naperville-Joliet is an MSA, not a CSA. The CSA is called Chicago-Naperville-Michigan City.Alon Levyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12195377309045184452noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8419444332771213285.post-4574932583271536412010-01-08T19:56:59.263-08:002010-01-08T19:56:59.263-08:00Greater Chicago's transit modal share is 11% (...<em>Greater Chicago's transit modal share is 11% (see link).</em><br /><br />They are massaging numbers. They are using San Francisco's MSA which doesn't include San Jose then compare it to Chicago's CSA which includes farmland in Illinois and Indiana. Transportation needs and use are going to be different out in farmland than in Oakland and Berkeley.Adirondacker12800noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8419444332771213285.post-8034621112780749952010-01-07T23:03:38.871-08:002010-01-07T23:03:38.871-08:00Greater Chicago's transit modal share is 11% (...Greater Chicago's transit modal share is 11% (<a href="http://www12.statcan.ca/census-recensement/2006/as-sa/97-561/figures/c2-eng.cfm" rel="nofollow">see link</a>). More than any other US metro area, Chicago has a problem with transit being great for trips to downtown and crappy for all other trips.Alon Levyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12195377309045184452noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8419444332771213285.post-33691907593551199112010-01-07T21:11:09.648-08:002010-01-07T21:11:09.648-08:00Enough that Greater SF's transit mode share wo...<em>Enough that Greater SF's transit mode share would be higher than 14%. Right now the national average in Canada is 15%...</em><br /><br />The Bay Area would have to get more congested, it's too easy to drive and park. Too cheap too. Or they have to turn San Francisco into the Loop. . . which would make it more congested and more expensive to drive.Adirondacker12800noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8419444332771213285.post-13381705190491794602010-01-07T04:27:13.349-08:002010-01-07T04:27:13.349-08:00I get around anywhere in SF easily.
Oh, in SF its...<i>I get around anywhere in SF easily.</i><br /><br />Oh, in SF itself, transit is decent. The problem is the rest of the Bay Area.<br /><br /><i>How much more network do you want?</i><br /><br />Enough that Greater SF's transit mode share would be higher than 14%. Right now the national average in Canada is 15%. Calgary is at 16% - that would be the Kotkin-approved world capital of oil barons. Forget Japan, or Switzerland, or even Greater New York...Alon Levyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12195377309045184452noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8419444332771213285.post-19496871703146708372010-01-06T20:26:33.242-08:002010-01-06T20:26:33.242-08:00Their networks are bad at getting passengers to an...<em>Their networks are bad at getting passengers to any other destination</em><br /><br />I get around anywhere in SF easily. Sometimes there's a bit of a wait for a bus but then I have don't have the same expectations for the bus lumbering up and down Filmore as I do for the the one on Geary or Van Ness. It's very very difficult to go more than 5 or 6 blocks before you get to the next bus line. How much more network do you want?Adirondacker12800noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8419444332771213285.post-6110217774836185122010-01-06T16:32:34.885-08:002010-01-06T16:32:34.885-08:00Anon, bear in mind that I agree that connecting tr...Anon, bear in mind that I agree that connecting transit is necessary for HSR to succeed. But I have 3 points to say about your comment:<br /><br />1. China is building local transit, as well. It's expanding its subway systems at breakneck pace: Shanghai Metro, the most extreme example, opened in 1995 and already has 10 lines and 334 route-km.<br /><br />2. Tokyo's subway has two systems - Tokyo Metro and Toei. Tokyo Metro is profitable - it gets a little bit of subsidy, but either the net profit or the taxes it pays are more than enough to cover the subsidy; counting both taxes and profits minus subsidies yields a farebox recovery ratio of about 110%. Toei is not profitable - it runs at a farebox recovery ratio of about 90%. I believe that combined the two systems are slightly above 100%, but I'm not sure.<br /><br />3. LA and SF both have decent connecting transit, if all you want is to get to LAUS or TBT. Their networks are bad at getting passengers to any other destination, killing ridership, but they're okay HSR feeders. The real problems in both areas come from feeding the secondary stations, including San Jose. (If anything, the problems in LA are worse than in the Bay Area.)Alon Levyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12195377309045184452noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8419444332771213285.post-73674362870339614672010-01-06T15:47:55.686-08:002010-01-06T15:47:55.686-08:00Anon
You can almost never drive 80mph the entire ...Anon<br /><br />You can almost never drive 80mph the entire way down I-5 from SF to LA... maybe on Tuesday at 3am, but no other time.<br /><br />I spent a year traveling between SF & LA at least once month and not a single time was I able to drive the speed limit the whole way, and several times I had to come to a complete stop for about 30 minutes.<br /><br />Google maps suggests that it takes 6 hours driving the speed limit, but driving with traffic takes 7.5 hours.<br /><br />Congestion is not a sign of a transit system's success, it is merely a sign that there is more demand than there is capacity. If your supposition were true, every freeway in the nation would suddenly be less successful this year, but the fact is fewer people are driving because they have lost their jobs.<br /><br />HSR is not designed to target families of five, and does not need a single one to ride to make it a successful and operationally profitable service, so why do you keep talking about that?<br /><br />Central Valley cities have no airports, so they have no option but to drive. When HSR comes many of them will take that as it is much more pleasant.<br /><br />Yes local transit should be improved, we suggest taking money from the overbuilt and highly subsidized highway system and transfer it to local transit improvements. There is no reason HSR & local transit have to fight for the scraps.<br /><br />LA traffic is horrible, and endless freeway expansions and extensions have done nothing to change that. There is traffic somewhere in LA at all times of the day and night (I've been caught in traffic jams at 3am & 4am, weekdays & weekends)<br /><br />I prefer to fly to LA now, I fly with my fiance, even though it's much more expensive and unpleasant than driving (Although with the random traffic, driving is not particularly pleasant either).<br /><br />When HSR is here I will happily take a cheaper, faster (door to door), more convenient, and more comfortable ride on the train, and I will do it more frequently than I fly now.<br /><br />I might even take the train down to the peninsula. I almost never go there today because I hate driving on 101.lyqwydhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13246339570684365095noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8419444332771213285.post-2239938523028976572010-01-06T14:59:00.965-08:002010-01-06T14:59:00.965-08:00Alon, my whole point all along is that urban and r...Alon, my whole point all along is that urban and regional trip movements are vastly greater than long-distance travel movements, even when adjusted for proportional distances. Japan's rail system readily reflects my point. The Shinkansen is a fancy image-piece (timed to be finished just before the 1964 Olympics of course) that caters to comparatively few long-distance riders and does very little to relieve urban congestion. Japan can make the Shinkansen work, because it has an elaborate network of supportive transit infrastructure(indeed, this includes all the metro JR services and buses too, along with the 16 private passenger rail companies in the metro areas). <br /><br />China's leadership is especially attracted by these fancy, shiny, image-y infrastructure projects, because it wants to show both the world and its own repressed population that is has "arrived" in modernity. This is demonstrated by the expensive maglev boondoggle in Shanghai and the proposed vast HSR network that far outstrips the national demand for such fast and expensive long-distance trips. China is still a very poor country on a per capita basis. China would be far better served by spending more of its public funds on urban transit systems in its urban hives and improving the regular intercity train system, both of which more directly serve the Chinese masses. Of course, this touches on the economic class component that is present in almost all infrastructure decisions. It is especially acute when public funds are used for HSR and its core market of business travelers. <br /><br />By the way, building and maintaining subways isn't cheap. Even all those Tokyo subway fares don't cover all the costs. Essentially all rail transit systems require public subsidy (or land value capture) for effective service, but within reason, the public benefits are worth the subsidy. HSR is just a piece of a much larger whole. HSR should never be considered to be an independent transportation system, because it requires a great deal of additional supportive infrastructure.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8419444332771213285.post-64725042581311874592010-01-06T14:35:10.453-08:002010-01-06T14:35:10.453-08:00Do you actually live in Mountain View? check out s...<em>Do you actually live in Mountain View? check out street view on Google Maps.</em><br /><br />It's really hard to tell when there are multiple people using Anon, as their nickname. One of them says he's only been down to Castro street a handful of times in decades but another says he's never noticed them. I wouldn't notice them either if I was walking/bicycling/driving along Castro, the entrances are discreetly tucked in on the side streets. <br /><br />Thanks for the link Amanda, I went and looked harder. I can't really tell from the satellite or street views but it looks like the Mountain View Performing Arts Center has a garage, entrance on Mercy north of Castro. The building behind it on Franklin and Mercy looks like it has a garage with it's entrance almost next to the one for the Performing Arts Center. <br /><br />The two I could find easily, one is very very obvious on the satellite views, there's a semi circular ramp leading into it. North of Castro on the west side High School Lane. The other one is a bit harder to see, the ramp is in the oval that is the surface parking lot, north of Castro with entrance on the west side of Church. Your link made me go look harder. There's another one on Bryant between Evelyn and Villa or it's on Cherry between Evelyn and Villa, takes up most of the block. Another on the south side of Castro west of Evelyn, not terribly obvious until you look at the shadows it's edges... there's a pedestrian bridge into the building on Castro. . . They've built multiple parking garages in a 6 block stretch... I stopped looking, there's lots of them. Means people want to go there.Adirondacker12800noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8419444332771213285.post-80012264276971663222010-01-06T13:38:05.378-08:002010-01-06T13:38:05.378-08:00So, Alon, you still think the Shinkansen revenues ...<i>So, Alon, you still think the Shinkansen revenues cover a significant share of the cost to allow the billions of trips taken on the subways and urban private railways of Japan!?!</i><br /><br />Um, the billions of trips you're talking about cost a couple hundred yen per trip. The 300 million Shinkansen trips can run into the 5 figures - e.g. Tokyo-Osaka at ¥14,000.<br /><br />So yes. If you don't believe me, check the JR/private railways modal shares, and the JR companies' HSR revenue shares.<br /><br />And do you still think that the JR companies are primarily intercity services, when the Yamanote Line is entirely inner-urban, and when JR East and JR West both account for half the non-subway rail traffic in their respective metro areas?Alon Levyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12195377309045184452noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8419444332771213285.post-15163021022892790372010-01-06T13:19:44.880-08:002010-01-06T13:19:44.880-08:00Castro's got parking garages? News to me. Wher...<i>Castro's got parking garages? News to me. Where?</i><br /><br />http://www.yelp.com/biz/downtown-parking-structure-mountain-view<br /><br />Do you actually live in Mountain View? check out street view on Google Maps.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8419444332771213285.post-83873185023926203632010-01-06T12:42:18.100-08:002010-01-06T12:42:18.100-08:00The Shinkansen is the small cherry on top of the v...The Shinkansen is the small cherry on top of the vast Japanese rail network. The Shinkansen is impressive, but it only works because of the extensive transport network that feeds it. So, Alon, you still think the Shinkansen revenues cover a significant share of the cost to allow the billions of trips taken on the subways and urban private railways of Japan!?! What a laugh! <br /><br />The LA basin is congested at times, and it is also one of the most vital economic regions in the world due to its transportation system. Buffalo, NY, Detroit, MI, and many other Rustbelt cities aren't congested, yet they have severe economic problems. What gives?? Oh, yes, congestion is a sign of success. What Buffalo and Detroit wouldn't do for some traffic congestion right now...Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8419444332771213285.post-53106681685461490702010-01-06T10:27:18.955-08:002010-01-06T10:27:18.955-08:00Also remember that congestion is also a sign of a ...<i>Also remember that congestion is also a sign of a transportation system's success: people are making heavy use of it.</i><br /><br />Who cares? By now you're just throwing sand in people's eyes. The Shinkansen has a tiny share of Japanese rail traffic! (I never claimed otherwise - I claimed the Shinkansen has a significant share of Japanese rail revenues.) Congested highways are successful! (As if planners don't try to find ways to make them less congested.) The Grapevine isn't congested! (The LA Basin is, which is exactly what "Once you cross the Grapevine" means.)Alon Levyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12195377309045184452noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8419444332771213285.post-2520413643672529802010-01-06T09:32:42.491-08:002010-01-06T09:32:42.491-08:00Again, it's not meant to address urban congest...<i>Again, it's not meant to address urban congestion. Urban congestion also needs to be dealt with, in ADDITION to building HSR.</i><br /><br />The vast majority of the $50 billion will be spent building ROW in urban areas. Something is very wrong if that infrastructure is not leveraged to provide maximum benefit for intraurban services.Drunk Engineerhttp://systemicfailure.wordpress.comnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8419444332771213285.post-19579246333274209512010-01-06T08:18:56.132-08:002010-01-06T08:18:56.132-08:00As the worst case scenario, an average of 25mph is...As the worst case scenario, an average of 25mph is much better than the "miracle" of 8mph. At many other times of day, the freeways are free-flowing. Compare this to Manila or Bangkok! Also remember that congestion is also a sign of a transportation system's success: people are making heavy use of it. <br /><br />To better inform yourself of LA's traffic and how to improve conditions, read the Rand Corporation's recent report "Moving LA".Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8419444332771213285.post-82909880423172279632010-01-06T07:02:12.795-08:002010-01-06T07:02:12.795-08:00"At many times of day, the LA freeways move j..."At many times of day, the LA freeways move just fine"<br /><br />I work weekends in LA and sometimes I drive. It can take an hour and a half to two hours to drive between Anaheim and the mid-Wilshire area. Perhaps you should educate yourself on LA traffic. <br /><br />The 405, 10, 110, 101 and the 710 all have horrible trafic at off-peak hours and on weekends. I drive regularly all over LA County as part of my job so I would know. Some of our vehicles calculate average speed, and sometimes I am lucky to get an average speed of 25 MPH.Spokkerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03244298044953214810noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8419444332771213285.post-81942609463993210162010-01-05T22:10:53.897-08:002010-01-05T22:10:53.897-08:00@ Anon
Again, it's not meant to address urban...@ Anon<br /><br />Again, it's not meant to address urban congestion. Urban congestion also needs to be dealt with, in ADDITION to building HSR. That's what having a transportation SYSTEM is all about.Peterhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00326948451529910432noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8419444332771213285.post-11704365574467287632010-01-05T21:30:35.216-08:002010-01-05T21:30:35.216-08:00That's for part of the trip. Once you cross th...<i> That's for part of the trip. Once you cross the Grapevine, achieving 8 mph would be a miracle. Unsurprisingly, the door-to-door travel time analyses produced for the HSR project show that taking HSR would take significantly less time than driving.</i><br /><br />Alon, just as you don't know Japan and the tiny share of rail traffic that the Shinkansen represents, you don't know LA either. The Grapevine is rarely congested. On a holiday weekend, the approach from LA may be congested, but this is very rare, far from normal. Even within LA, freeway traffic moves much faster than 8mph, and solutions to improving urban freeway speed include HOV lanes and congestion pricing. Better transit is an option, but HSR will do next to nothing to improve LA's road congestion -- you have to be extremely naive or gullible to CHSRA's propaganda to think otherwise. At many times of day, the LA freeways move just fine, but the perception is shaped by the commute peaks. Again, HSR will do next to nothing to address urban congestion. HSR is designed to serve long-distance traffic, which is a miniscule fraction of total traffic movements.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8419444332771213285.post-38885287623764422692010-01-05T19:41:38.736-08:002010-01-05T19:41:38.736-08:00I would be willing to drive 70 if I was stupid eno...I would be willing to drive 70 if I was stupid enough to drive from LA to SF.Spokkerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03244298044953214810noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8419444332771213285.post-4289299612588345602010-01-05T19:40:40.139-08:002010-01-05T19:40:40.139-08:00"Once you cross the Grapevine, achieving 8 mp..."Once you cross the Grapevine, achieving 8 mph would be a miracle."<br /><br />Not to mention that driving at 80 MPH is less safe than taking a train. It's also illegal. <br /><br />I can just drive 65 and those behind me have to deal with it or kill me in their rage. My family will collect on my once worthless life. Cha-ching.Spokkerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03244298044953214810noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8419444332771213285.post-43881239711608649672010-01-05T19:39:00.040-08:002010-01-05T19:39:00.040-08:00Do families never fly? I remember when I was looki...Do families never fly? I remember when I was looking into a Walt Disney World vacation (decided not to, the place sucks) I noticed deep discounts for travelers with kids. No reason CAHSR can't offer such discounts. Amtrak does kids ride free all the time.Spokkerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03244298044953214810noreply@blogger.com