tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8419444332771213285.post5725736691628419447..comments2024-03-28T11:51:19.078-07:00Comments on Caltrain HSR Compatibility Blog: Focus on: BrisbaneClemhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/01374282217135682245noreply@blogger.comBlogger46125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8419444332771213285.post-43197912034027506602009-09-28T15:15:43.070-07:002009-09-28T15:15:43.070-07:00Ooh.... JOBS. Brisbane *ought* to like this.Ooh.... JOBS. Brisbane *ought* to like this.neroden@gmailhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07475686367097445497noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8419444332771213285.post-69680914492585661382009-09-25T10:00:22.180-07:002009-09-25T10:00:22.180-07:00who said anything about dead-heading? SF to SJ is ...<em>who said anything about dead-heading? SF to SJ is a revenue opportunity both late at night and early in the morning</em>.<br /><br />Caltrain is still going to be running a local, the HSR train isn't going to stop at Bayshore and Menlo Park. So instead of 100 people on the Caltrain local there'd be 80 people on the Caltrain local and 25 on the HSR. Railroad cars get sent in for maintenance based on how many miles they have traveled. How many passengers do they have to carry between San Francisco and San Jose at 11 o'clock at night to make the extra 45 miles worth it? Conductor and engineer aren't going to do it for free, they are going to want to be paid for that extra 20 minutes. How badly does the schedule get screwed up when they can't get the 5:15 to pass it's brake test and they have to send in a replacement from San Jose which takes 45 minutes versus one from Brisbane which takes 20? <br /><br />Even though Caltrain has lots of reverse commuters they are still going to have a peak towards San Francisco in the morning and towards San Jose in the evening. It would be handy for them to have a yard close to San Francisco too.Adirondacker12800noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8419444332771213285.post-26270154347833069512009-09-23T07:03:55.123-07:002009-09-23T07:03:55.123-07:00@ adirondacker12800 -
who said anything about dea...@ adirondacker12800 -<br /><br />who said anything about dead-heading? SF to SJ is a revenue opportunity both late at night and early in the morning.<br /><br />Stabling in Gilroy, let alone Merced, would be a more questionable proposition.Rafaelhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05471957286484454765noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8419444332771213285.post-83079021184163542702009-09-19T11:38:14.305-07:002009-09-19T11:38:14.305-07:00So, how much acreage is required to stable a maxim...<em>So, how much acreage is required to stable a maximum of 12 HSR sets, including facilities for a small night team to work through third shift to service the trains</em>?<br /><br />Not much. On the other hand it doesn't make sense to be deadheading trains if they can avoid it cheaply. The Brisbane yard is more or less empty now. If 50 years from now they need space it's going to be very very expensive to find it.Adirondacker12800noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8419444332771213285.post-62425817783571293502009-09-19T10:08:54.961-07:002009-09-19T10:08:54.961-07:00Let me see if I follow this.
California is planni...Let me see if I follow this.<br /><br />California is planning to build a double-Y HSR system, with a common trunk through the Central Valley, dividing between Sacramento and SF in the north and Anaheim and San Diego in the South.<br /><br />The preferred alignment between San Diego and San Francisco is the Caltrain alignment, as local rail corridor that has dominant northern trips in the morning and dominant southern trips in the evenings.<br /><br />So at the outset, the big northern overhaul and major maintenance center ought to be near the fork of the Y, such as Merced, 74 minutes away from San Francisco.<br /><br />And Caltrain ought to have its own overhaul and major maintenance center to the south of the primary SJ/SF corridor.<br /><br />And San Jose would be less than forty minutes away from the SF terminus for an express HSR run.<br /><br />So if a northern major maintenance center has stabling capacity for a large number of trains, then forty five minutes later trains from Merced could begin passing SJ going north. That is a maximum of 8 HSR trains that would need stabling at San Jose.<br /><br />And a train that heads out of San Jose at the start of the service day would certainly be ready to run back out of San Francisco in an hour. So a network maximum of stabling for 12 services would be required.<br /><br />So, how much acreage is required to stable a maximum of 12 HSR sets, including facilities for a small night team to work through third shift to service the trains?BruceMcFhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08502035881761277885noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8419444332771213285.post-52052625870941962032009-09-17T17:37:51.816-07:002009-09-17T17:37:51.816-07:00HSR Crashworthiness analysis at SRI.
http://www.s...HSR Crashworthiness analysis at SRI.<br /><br />http://www.sri.com/psd/fracture/tr_crash.htmlJameshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17296808260419563238noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8419444332771213285.post-22743199816689025742009-09-17T15:48:45.561-07:002009-09-17T15:48:45.561-07:00I ran into a fellow the other day, and was surpris...I ran into a fellow the other day, and was surprised to learn that there was an engineering team at the Stanford Research Institute (SRI), years ago, heavily involved in HSR. <br /><br />They did a lot of work on what became Spain's system, from what he told me.<br /><br />So there is indeed US born HSR engineering here in the US.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8419444332771213285.post-82729531097948849572009-09-17T15:25:37.815-07:002009-09-17T15:25:37.815-07:00Alon:
Actually, you can now get track speed and s...Alon:<br /><br />Actually, you can now get track speed and speed restrictions all the way from Delaware to NYP on Rich Green's map:<br /><br /><a href="http://www.richegreen.com/NJSEPTAV5.pdf" rel="nofollow">http://www.richegreen.com/NJSEPTAV5.pdf</a><br /><br />Between Frankford and Newark, the only major SR is the reverse curve at Elizabeth (55 mph, for Acela or Amfleet...usually for curves Acela gets a higher speed restriction than Amfleet). Everything else is 100+ mph except for 95 mph curves at Trenton and Lincoln (95 mph for Acela...Amfleet is only 80 mph on the curve west of Lincoln).mikenoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8419444332771213285.post-7731619590168184082009-09-17T15:23:55.790-07:002009-09-17T15:23:55.790-07:00Berlin's public transit system (and all other ...<i>Berlin's public transit system (and all other aspects of its public service sector) is a notorious "basket-case".</i><br /><br />No, it actually has the largest rail ridership in the German-speaking world, both in absolute numbers and relative to population. Munich, the richest city in Germany, has a slightly lower ridership relative to population. Frankfurt, the second richest, has a lower ridership per capita than New York and Jurassic era signaling.<br /><br /><i>If managers did fudge maintenance, then at least they will go to jail...which is more than you can say about Washington Metro.</i><br /><br />Nobody's going to jail there, yet. However, the management did get fired en masse a few months ago.Alon Levyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12195377309045184452noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8419444332771213285.post-33004931898722270152009-09-17T12:06:47.907-07:002009-09-17T12:06:47.907-07:00@ anon @ 13:10 -
yes, Tony Daniels is British and...@ anon @ 13:10 -<br /><br />yes, Tony Daniels is British and he used to work for British Rail in the 1970. He quit when they decided against developing a true HSR network in the UK and set about making one happen in the US. There's no basis for labeling him a reject.<br /><br />Bob Doty of Caltrain fame participated in the design of HS1 in the UK.<br /><br />So why aren't there any French, Germans, Spaniards, Italians, Koreans, Chinese or Japanese on CHSRA's core engineering staff? Dunno.Rafaelhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05471957286484454765noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8419444332771213285.post-90984297681151929582009-09-17T00:20:09.512-07:002009-09-17T00:20:09.512-07:00London has the same rail ridership per capita as B...<i>London has the same rail ridership per capita as Berlin</i><br /><br />This is apples-and-oranges comparison. Berlin's public transit system (and all other aspects of its public service sector) is a notorious "basket-case". Berlin is combination of inherited inefficiencies of Communist East Germany, and government-welfare for West. <br /><br />If managers did fudge maintenance, then at least they will go to jail...which is more than you can say about Washington Metro.bikeridernoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8419444332771213285.post-52388908575753212932009-09-16T20:49:59.970-07:002009-09-16T20:49:59.970-07:00Are there any major slow zones between Frankford J...Are there any major slow zones between Frankford Junction and Newark? On Google Maps the tracks seem pretty straight, but the timetable is slower than you'd guess based on a maximum speed of 125 mph and one station stop at Trenton.Alon Levyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12195377309045184452noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8419444332771213285.post-64225253990769768682009-09-16T20:47:51.810-07:002009-09-16T20:47:51.810-07:00I suspect he's looking at an employee timetabl...<i>I suspect he's looking at an employee timetable. Paper thing, that doesn't need electricity etc. to work.</i><br /><br />Correct. Mine is pretty old (circa early-2000s)...I think or got it from a kind Amtrak conductor. Or maybe off EBay. I don't remember.<br /><br />At any rate, if you have any simple questions that you want answered, I can try to address them.mikenoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8419444332771213285.post-47296857854396706322009-09-16T20:20:07.525-07:002009-09-16T20:20:07.525-07:00Mike, do you have a link to this NEC TT?
I suspec...<em>Mike, do you have a link to this NEC TT?</em><br /><br />I suspect he's looking at an employee timetable. Paper thing, that doesn't need electricity etc. to work.Adirondacker12800noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8419444332771213285.post-63975280475442952052009-09-16T19:13:11.430-07:002009-09-16T19:13:11.430-07:00Mike, do you have a link to this NEC TT?Mike, do you have a link to this NEC TT?Alon Levyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12195377309045184452noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8419444332771213285.post-71846265015439642882009-09-16T14:08:40.741-07:002009-09-16T14:08:40.741-07:00@Tim
Okay, looking at my NEC TT, track speed is 1...@Tim<br /><br />Okay, looking at my NEC TT, track speed is 100 mph up to MP 3, after which it drops to 70 mph. 30th St. is at MP 1.5, so you're probably doing 100 mph until less than 2 miles west of 30th St.<br /><br />@Richard<br /><br />I don't think the NEC is particularly well run (and, with a few exceptions, certainly not well-designed). I have no doubt that the Swiss are much better in most respects. But that's exactly my point - if <i>even</i> the NEC can operate trains at 160 kph within 2-3 miles of the city center, then anyone can potentially do it, and you shouldn't purposely design your system to exclude it. Of course, that also doesn't mean you should accommodate it at any cost. (And again, I see no need for 160 kph tracks inside the yard itself.)<br /><br />As for your point regarding flip comments, I think virtually everyone here agrees that CHSRA should be turning to experienced international (i.e., European and Japanese) suppliers/designers/operators first and using off-the-shelf stuff whenever possible (i.e., almost always). The only reason you're seeing these comments about the Germans and the Swiss is because your own rhetoric is so over-the-top (which, truth be told, I often find entertaining, but you can't expect people not to remark on it).<br /><br />Even when Caltrain et al actually are as egregiously idiotic and incompetent as you argue, all of the colorful adjectives don't really help you convince most people. It may be cathartic to curse their incompetence in as many ways as you can imagine, but it doesn't really help rally people to the cause...mikenoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8419444332771213285.post-91686707408379244722009-09-16T13:10:22.199-07:002009-09-16T13:10:22.199-07:00Isn't the actual PBQD Senior Rail Operations E...Isn't the actual PBQD Senior Rail Operations Engineer British? I think he's a veteran of 1970s British Rail, which is a reason to worry. Why do we get the rejects???Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8419444332771213285.post-88430969456132265142009-09-16T12:10:25.832-07:002009-09-16T12:10:25.832-07:00Richard, the point is, the German-speaking world d...Richard, the point is, the German-speaking world doesn't have the "most successful (by objective metrics) transportation operation anywhere on the planet." From the point of view of Tokyo, there's no difference between Berlin, London, and New York.<br /><br />Even from the point of view of the US, Germany and Switzerland are not that superior. London has the same rail ridership per capita as Berlin, without through-routing or schedule and fare integration, and without needing to cut service by a factor of 4 due to safety issues. In Tokyo, per capita rail ridership is almost twice that of both Berlin and London - and the operators are safety-minded and don't cut corners on brake inspections.Alon Levyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12195377309045184452noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8419444332771213285.post-56530602524115313592009-09-16T11:57:46.431-07:002009-09-16T11:57:46.431-07:00I know you think you're being funny and cuttin...I know you think you're being funny and cutting and everything, but the sort of flip, "there he goes again", NIH BS that you're either ironically or non-ironically projecting is <i>exactly</i> the attitude of our <b>objectively non-achieving</b> and objectively ignorant and objectively unqualified local engineering club uses to discard any alternatives or any suggestions of any type coming from any direction.<br /><br />I read once somewhere that a train in Italy had a crash. Get out of here with that Euro-weenie stuff!<br /><br />I saw on the web that Switzerland had a power failure. They don't know anything.<br /><br />Yeah, in Hong Kong they operate more trains per hour than I say is possible, but <i>Asians don't value life the way we do.</i> (Actual words from actual senior Transbay JPA rail engineering consultant.)<br /><br />That's all well and good to bring that up, but everybody knows that transfers kill ridership.<br /><br />You say everything in Europe is perfect, but look here, HSL-Zuid is five years late (and counting), so you're full of shit.<br /><br />All very funny indeed.<br /><br />So just lay off the boring "taking lessons from the most successful (by objective metrics) transportation operation anywhere on the planet" schtick, and let's get back to anecdotes about Metro North, where all the signs are in English. (Actual attitude of actual PBQD Senior Rail Operations Engineer dictating CHSRA criteria, not just random blog commenters.)<br /><br />Facts are stupid things.Richard Mlynarikhttp://www.pobox.com/users/mly/noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8419444332771213285.post-31379417865826397512009-09-16T09:47:56.019-07:002009-09-16T09:47:56.019-07:00@ Alon Levy, mike -
the reason the S-Bahn in Berl...@ Alon Levy, mike -<br /><br />the reason the S-Bahn in Berlin is operating on an emergency timetable right now is indeed that management at Deutsche Bahn skimped on maintenance of the rolling stock.<br /><br />However, the reason has nothing to do with distance from Switzerland and everything to do with the desire to partially privatize train operations in Germany. Between the related ICE3/ICE-T debacle last summer and the general bear market following the collapse of Lehman Brothers, the IPO was shelved. This new fiasco with the S-Bahn in Berlin means it may well stay shelved for some considerable time, much to the chagrin of the federal finance ministry.Rafaelhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05471957286484454765noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8419444332771213285.post-84909338775413969752009-09-16T08:56:23.616-07:002009-09-16T08:56:23.616-07:00unlike in some other cities, where the operator sk...<i>unlike in some other cities, where the operator skimps on safety inspections and then discovers it needs to pull 75% of the rolling stock on less than a day's notice.</i><br /><br />The problem is that Berlin is so far from the Swiss border. If it were closer like, say, Munchen, then some of that magic Swiss pixie dust might have floated over the city and none of this would have ever happened. ;-)mikenoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8419444332771213285.post-76206350462043435102009-09-15T23:25:49.129-07:002009-09-15T23:25:49.129-07:00Again I used the NYC subway system because the geo...<i>Again I used the NYC subway system because the geography is easy to understand and the schedules are in English.</i><br /><br />Or, you may have used the subway system because in New York service disruptions are preplanned and announced ahead of time, unlike in <a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Berlin_S-Bahn#2009_service_reductions" rel="nofollow">some other cities</a>, where the operator skimps on safety inspections and then discovers it needs to pull 75% of the rolling stock on less than a day's notice.<br /><br />The people who run the MTA may be corrupt and bloated and have no clue how trains run in the rest of the world, but at least they aren't that stupid.Alon Levyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12195377309045184452noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8419444332771213285.post-72134745443771814462009-09-15T18:33:42.151-07:002009-09-15T18:33:42.151-07:00I don't know if you want to consider Newark a ...<em>I don't know if you want to consider Newark a destination... :-/ </em><br /><br />It doesn't have a BART station so it can't be a destination. ;-) <br /><br />I doubt all the people working in the skyscapers in downtown Newark live in Newark. Penn Station in Newark is Amtrak's 13th busiest station so someone considers it a destination. <br /><br />There's four trains an hour during the peak on the Raritan Valley line so a few people have Newark in mind when they board the train, even though it's not their destination. (Most Raritan Valley trains terminate or orginate at Newark) Many of them transfer <b> across the platform </b> to the PATH which runs every "3 to 5 minutes" during rush hours. Some of them loiter around for a few minutes until a NEC train or a North Jersey Coast train arrives that can take them to Penn Station in NYC. I'd have to go look at schedules for an hour or so to get an accurate count but during rush hour there's more than a bus a minute on Market Street and then all the buses on the Raymond Blvd side. And there's a few people on the subway. 30 years ago people would drive to Penn Station , park the car and use the train. Most of those parking lots are now skyscraper office buildings so there aren't as many people using Newark for park-n-ride but I'm sure it's done. ( I would if the timing was right, parking regulations get much more liberal late in the afternoon a few blocks from the station )Adirondacker12800noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8419444332771213285.post-53988224777782387392009-09-15T18:30:12.214-07:002009-09-15T18:30:12.214-07:00including certain North-Eastern USA blog commenter...<em>including certain North-Eastern USA blog commenters who think that the NEC model of separate and unequal parallel universe operators is what makes for "a railroad"</em><br /><br />I use the example of the Northeast Corridor for many reasons. People know where Philadelphia is in relation to New York City and Washington D.C. If they want to go look at the schedules they are in English. The tickets are priced in US dollars. Trains actually run on it and usually keep to schedule. Scary things like level boarding onto electric trains too. Reasonably good connections to other rail systems, where the schedules are in English and priced in US dollars. I'm familiar with it. I'm especially fond of the cross platform transfer available in Newark between PATH and NJTransit/Amtrak. I never said it was run well or the fare structure made sense. To paraphrase another commenter on another thread, 125 MPH train service is very nice, you Californians should try it. <br /><br /><em>which is what the Swiss do to make international trains accept regular Swiss tickets once they're inside the borders</em><br /><br />But it's not easy to use your bus pass good for 2 zones on a international train. You have to make a reservation, pay a booking charge and upgrade the amount of zones. Have to upgrade your zones if you want to go farther than you pass allows on the bus too. If you buy a daytime pass and stay out late you have to upgrade with a nighttime supplement. I haven't looked at the website recently. I seem to remember that there is a pass that lets you travel anywhere anytime on any mode. At the currency conversion rates then in effect it was a bit over $3,000.00 a year and if you want to get on the through train you still have to reserve a seat and pay a booking charge. Not much of bargain considering that Switzerland could fit inside Los Angeles county with room leftover. And very user friendly upgrading and supplementing things thither hither and yon. Whoppee it all gets done at one ticket vending machine. <br /><br /><br /><em>If you look at their crazed, alternate universe "Phase 1 service plan" sample timetable (p24) you'll insanities like four HSRs, most of them supposedly double-headers, following each other along Caltrain within the space of 15 minutes.</em><br /><br />8 trains departing to the same desintination, between 5AM and 6AM, is overly optimistic, anywhere in the world. passengers are still asleep. Just for fun I checked southbound schedules on the NYC subway system. Only two lines, the 6 and 7 have more than 6 trains an hour beween 5 and 6 . The 6 has 8 trains southbound. The 7 has 9 trains during that period. Two of them are expresses. I didn't analyze things like the A train going from local service to express service when the B train starts to run. Again I used the NYC subway system because the geography is easy to understand and the schedules are in English.Adirondacker12800noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8419444332771213285.post-78194035762412012402009-09-15T17:01:58.267-07:002009-09-15T17:01:58.267-07:00The best investments are always operational improv...<i> The best investments are always operational improvements (decreasing dwell times)</i><br /><br />Fair enough, I agree with you there.<br /><br />At a minimum, no more than 3 tracks should be necessary from Bayshore to 4th & King (two inbound, one outbound). And in principle two could work, although it leaves you very little flexibility.<br /><br /><i>Any other such examples in the US?</i><br /><br />Unfortunately I don't have my NEC timetables with me. But I'm pretty confident that eastbound Amtraks run at 100-110 mph until about a mile before they approach the curve at CP Arsenal, which itself is about 1.5 miles west of Philadelphia 30th St Station. So you're still talking 160+ kph until 2.5-3.0 miles from the station. It's also the case that eastbound Amtraks run at 110 mph until less than 2 miles west of Newark Penn Station. But I don't know if you want to consider Newark a destination... :-/<br /><br /><i>It's prudent to consider the possibility, and to calculate how much time it saves per dollar of construction expense. </i><br /><br />What's the cost of designing for 100+ mph? The track is straight in this section anyway. They're already going to have PTC signaling. All you're talking about is maintaining the track to Class 6 instead of Class 4. That's almost no cost at all.<br /><br />Note that I'm <b>not</b> saying that I agree with building a storage yard with 160 kph tracks. That definitely seems like overkill. I was only taking issue with Richard's claim that there is never a case in which you'd see operations at 160 kph this close to the city center/major station.mikenoreply@blogger.com