tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8419444332771213285.post4719898500211107586..comments2024-03-17T12:42:36.234-07:00Comments on Caltrain HSR Compatibility Blog: Focus on: San MateoClemhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/01374282217135682245noreply@blogger.comBlogger47125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8419444332771213285.post-21467839299324420152009-07-24T10:13:24.819-07:002009-07-24T10:13:24.819-07:00Basically, the way the population and jobs in Sili...Basically, the way the population and jobs in Silicon Valley work out is that the population is in the south, and the jobs are in the north, with minor job centers scattered elsewhere (Cupertino, Downtown San Jose). Palo Alto, Mountain View, Sunnyvale, Santa Clara, each probably have around the same amount of high-tech office space as North San Jose (especially Santa Clara). The reason the VTA light rail fails is that the somewhat circuitous and very, very slow route through Downtown makes it much less useful for commutes from south of downtown (where the people are) to north of it (where the jobs are). Add to that the fact that the many of the jobs are in fact even further west in Santa Clara and Sunnyvale, and many are not on the light rail, and it makes for a very long trip. Most of Caltrain's Silicon Valley-bound commuter ridership is going to Palo Alto or Mountain View, most of ACE's ridership takes the shuttle buses at Great America (the platform there is PACKED at rush hour). And even light rail gets decent loads during rush hour on the lines south of Downtown (which are at least fast).crzwdjkhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06394805356595604336noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8419444332771213285.post-24863941415064269732009-07-17T09:27:52.351-07:002009-07-17T09:27:52.351-07:00Anon, San Jose is a bedroom community to the citie...Anon, San Jose is a bedroom community to the cities to its north. You should check Caltrain boardings at 8 am, not 5:30 pm.Alon Levyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12195377309045184452noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8419444332771213285.post-72229032040080801652009-07-17T05:39:00.260-07:002009-07-17T05:39:00.260-07:00I rode VTA Light Rail during rush hour on a non-ho...I rode VTA Light Rail during rush hour on a non-holiday weekday and tried to figure out what was wrong with it.<br /><br />One, it's trying to be a quaint little streetcar for downtown while simultaneously trying to bring in commuters from the suburbs. It's slow and I have to imagine it pisses off people trying to get to work who are coming from further away. Maybe I'm wrong, but I would remove half of those stops in the middle of the Alum Rock-Santa Teresa line. <br /><br />The Green Line toward Mountain View felt like it had too many goddamn stops too, and a meandering route. These stations really need to be at least a mile apart. <br /><br />Two, there were portions of the blue line toward Santa Teresa that run in the median of the freeway. Freeway stations suck ass. They are often difficult to get to and unbearable to wait at. I would bet this contributes to the low ridership problem. I think the Green Line in Los Angeles shares a similar issue. But then again there are a hell of a lot more people on it than on VTA light rail.Spokkerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03244298044953214810noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8419444332771213285.post-65882685621013703642009-07-17T05:26:18.230-07:002009-07-17T05:26:18.230-07:00According to Caltrain San Jose sees 2,983 boarding...According to <a href="http://www.caltrain.com/pdf/annual_ridership_counts/2009_Caltrain_Ridership_Counts.pdf" rel="nofollow">Caltrain</a> San Jose sees 2,983 boardings per day, making it the fourth busiest Caltrain station.<br /><br />So you should have seen about 30 riders board each train on average. <br /><br />"the hour when tens of thousands of workers leave the humming office towers of San José, Capital of Silicon Valley"<br /><br />When I was in San Jose during a non-holiday weekday I didn't even see this. Downtown felt like it was deserted. Few cars and even fewer people. Even Downtown LA has people in it during the day.Spokkerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03244298044953214810noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8419444332771213285.post-6891407058758012962009-07-16T19:24:27.988-07:002009-07-16T19:24:27.988-07:00Oddly enough, I recently spent an hour -- RUSH HOU...Oddly enough, I recently spent an hour -- RUSH HOUR -- 5:30 to 6:30pm -- at San José Diridon Station last week; the hour when tens of thousands of workers leave the humming office towers of San José, Capital of Silicon Valley, and head home via efficient VTA, Amtrak, ACE, and Caltrain services.<br /><br />My observation was that typical boardings on Caltrain were between 10 and 20 passengers. I believe the usual industry term for this is "non revenue service".<br /><br />The <b>multi-modal</b> VTA light rail connection was even more stunning: average boarding per train of just over 1 person during the time I observed the platforms (which was basically any time a Caltrain wasn't departing.)<br /><br />As for the <b>transit oriented development</b> condos around the station, let's just say I didn't see a single pedestrian.<br /><br />So by all means let's keep building on this success! It's clear the station isn't anywhere big enough or multi-modal enough to deal with the demand of the tenth largest city in the most important country on the only known habitable planet in the universe. The arrival of BART and HSR will make San José Diridon Station so multi-modal I get dizzy just thinking about it. Light rail boardings might rocket up to dozens per hour, while the 4200 BART seats per direction per hour (10 car trains every 6 minutes) may have have occupancy as high as 1%.<br /><br />Meanwhile, San Mateo's downtown isn't a bad place to visit at all. It isn't up there in the major metropolis league with Palo Alto or Burlingame, but there's stuff to do and stuff to buy. Check it out!<br /><br />None of this is just prejudice or "hating on" San José, Capital of Silicon Valley: it's more looking at the numbers, taking the time to see what's happening in the world, rather than on a blog or in the propaganda pieces of local politicians. <br /><br />PS I work in Silicon Valley, have worked in Silicon Valley for more than a decade, I can make the payments on my mortgage thanks to the largesse of the Captains of Industry of Silicon Valley, but I have no reason to ever visit San José, Capital of Silicon Valley, nor do most of my fellow Silicon Valley serfs.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8419444332771213285.post-58207380858085059682009-07-16T15:48:32.200-07:002009-07-16T15:48:32.200-07:00The three stations in San Mateo generate more ride...The three stations in San Mateo generate more ridership than San Jose. OOOOkay, so what's your point Clem? Or is this just your way of getting another cheap shot in on the Bay Area's largest city and economic engine?!<br /><br />Anyhow, that statement won't be true in 10 years.Tony D.https://www.blogger.com/profile/03392232221747908883noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8419444332771213285.post-78361614397339956332009-07-14T16:16:25.890-07:002009-07-14T16:16:25.890-07:00@Karen Re: noise, did you miss where Adirondacker ...@Karen Re: noise, did you miss where Adirondacker posted the following?<br /><br /><i>Electric trains are much quieter than diesels, the grade crossings along with their noise, will be eliminated and thw whole Peninsula will be getting faster train service.</i>mikenoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8419444332771213285.post-15083507201956674212009-07-13T19:47:00.870-07:002009-07-13T19:47:00.870-07:00@ Clem
Any chance you can go to a PCC meeting and...@ Clem<br /><br />Any chance you can go to a PCC meeting and talk to the group about what is realistic? Your posts regarding Tony C. on the Town Square article regarding his "tunnel vision" were excellent. We need your wisdom and experience. Can you come?!Train Watchernoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8419444332771213285.post-87105734158509873902009-07-13T00:25:08.334-07:002009-07-13T00:25:08.334-07:00Anon here is just asserting superiority
I stand c...<i>Anon here is just asserting superiority</i><br /><br />I stand corrected.<br /><br />;-)timotehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05167049606237346501noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8419444332771213285.post-91472337664002137082009-07-12T22:17:36.506-07:002009-07-12T22:17:36.506-07:00Who's to say I didn't post that anyway? A...Who's to say I didn't post that anyway? Anybody can snipe anonymously. For that matter, anybody could pretend to post as me.Richard Mlynarikhttp://www.pobox.com/users/mly/noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8419444332771213285.post-73826939565710016312009-07-12T18:34:00.240-07:002009-07-12T18:34:00.240-07:00OK, settle down... I think what sent anon ballisti...OK, settle down... I think what sent anon ballistic was a mention of 1930s PCC streetcars in the context of a modern, active research & development field. It jarred me too.Clemhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01374282217135682245noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8419444332771213285.post-27638760814177516612009-07-12T15:53:22.339-07:002009-07-12T15:53:22.339-07:00Timote, he's not even showing superiority. Sho...Timote, he's not even showing superiority. Showing superiority involves giving some useful information. Richard does it, a lot. Anon here is just asserting superiority - for all we know, he could be an ornery high school student who heard a few buzzwords in conversation.Alon Levyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12195377309045184452noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8419444332771213285.post-51666500662634918832009-07-12T14:37:06.697-07:002009-07-12T14:37:06.697-07:00Anonymous @13:12 -
Do you actually have anything...Anonymous @13:12 - <br /><br />Do you actually have anything constructive to add, or is your intent just to show superiority without having to do any work?timotehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05167049606237346501noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8419444332771213285.post-22092767472920465392009-07-12T13:12:51.007-07:002009-07-12T13:12:51.007-07:00Oh man. Giant steaming helpings of Male Answer Sy...Oh man. Giant steaming helpings of Male Answer Syndrome.<br /><br />If you don't have a clue about rolling contact wear, or about tribology, or about brake system design, or about wheel-rail interaction (a <i>very</i> active field), or about railway noise mitigation (a <i>very</i> active field outside North America) then the correct action is ... to say nothing.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8419444332771213285.post-23578788911695061152009-07-12T13:05:58.252-07:002009-07-12T13:05:58.252-07:00Rafael: I might be mistaken, but these are observa...Rafael: I might be mistaken, but these are observations I've heard from people working with street railways with PCC-like cars, and I suspect that they're right. Tread brakes smooth out the wheels by simply wearing away the surface. The issue of flat spots produced by locked brakes is actually somewhat orthogonal to this, and tread brakes can't really help with that. But without tread brakes, minor imperfections in the wheels tend to imprint themselves on the rails, which imprint them on the wheels of successive trains and so on, resulting in a sort of wave on the rail head. I think this might even be visible to some extent if it gets particularly bad (look closely at street railway tracks some time), and you can certainly hear it. The way to get rid of it is by regrinding the rails and re-cutting the wheels.<br /><br />Come to think of it, didn't BART have this problem? I recall hearing something very similar to this in a press release announcing their new rail grinder which was meant to reduce wheel-rail noise. I'm pretty sure BART trains don't have tread brakes, and they're definitely astoundingly loud.crzwdjkhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06394805356595604336noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8419444332771213285.post-26142748816809348622009-07-11T12:51:00.551-07:002009-07-11T12:51:00.551-07:00@ arcady -
streetcars have to brake far more freq...@ arcady -<br /><br />streetcars have to brake far more frequently and abruptly than HSR trains. Rail-wheel noise is a secondary consideration in urban traffic and, purely recuperative braking is often not possible.<br /><br />In general, tread brakes actually increase surface roughness, especially if there is no ABS system to keep wheels from seizing up. Over time, rough wheels also rough up the rails. Note that we're talking about a microscopic phenomenon here, the naked eye would have a hard time telling a rough rail from a smooth one.Rafaelhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05471957286484454765noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8419444332771213285.post-61026060812163575952009-07-11T11:00:02.148-07:002009-07-11T11:00:02.148-07:00Clem, just FYI, but disc brakes actually don't...Clem, just FYI, but disc brakes actually don't help rail smoothness. With tread brakes, the wheels are constantly being polished into a rounder shape, while with disc brakes (and drum brakes) you don't get that polishing effect and the wheels become bumpier, and make the tracks bumpier in a sort of mutual reinforcement process. I know this is a problem on street railways, no idea to what extent it's a problem for HSR.crzwdjkhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06394805356595604336noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8419444332771213285.post-33755632390859019842009-07-11T02:11:51.316-07:002009-07-11T02:11:51.316-07:00@ Karen -
railway noise is a complex subject that...@ Karen -<br /><br />railway noise is a complex subject that really deserves its own post on this or another blog.<br /><br />In a nutshell, there are two factors to consider: the noise level and the spectral distribution.<br /><br />The relevant metric for the level is the so-called sound exposure level (SEL). It combines the measured sound pressure in dB(A), the duration of noise events and their frequency into a single "equivalent" number for the purpose of environmental assessments.<br /><br />The spectral distribution of noise is relevant for psychoacoustic metrics such as loudness and harshness. By and large, modern electric trains running on good rails tend to score better on this than motor vehicles.<br /><br />Both types of metrics are tricky in that the psychological and physiological effect of noise varies from one person to another. For example, some people can become accustomed to occasional loud background events like trains passing by and stay focused on their task. Others find it difficult to concentrate, let alone sleep, because their brains never learn to ignore the events.<br /><br />Noise sources from electric trains include rail-wheel contact, aerodynamic drag, pantograph-overhead catenary contact, transformer, inverters and electric motors. Of these, rail-wheel contact and aerodynamic noise are the dominant sources for fast trains.<br /><br />HSR systems minimize both at source by design: the rails are continuously welded ribbons, the contact surface kept smooth by relying on recuperative braking supplemented by disk brakes. Surface roughness is a key factor in contact noise, yet another reason why freight trains need to be kept off fancy HSR rails. The trains also feature optimized nose cones and minimized spaces between cars to keep drag down.<br /><br />In addition, noise transmission can be reduced using sound walls and/or the special windows you refer to. Compared to the present Caltrain situation, HSR and Caltrain electrification are expected to bring the following changes:<br /><br />- sharply reduced noise level per event due to elimination of grade crossings (no horns, no bells), diesel engines, improved rail bed and modern rolling stock. Freight trains will still rattle, but at least there won't be any nighttime horns and bells.<br /><br />- sharply increased number of events by 2030 (up to 10 Caltrains plus a similar number of HSR trains per hour during peak periods, each way). Number of freight trains not expected to change, though UPRR has not committed to that.<br /><br />- wider lateral dispersal of noise if tracks are elevated, since most structures next to the railroad are single-story. However, the width of the impacted zone depends critically on many factors, including train design, maintenance of rail and wheel surfaces and the presence of sufficiently tall and effective sound walls. In addition, the zone is narrower where trains run more slowly or there are tall buildings adjacent to the tracks.<br /><br />It's fair to ask HNTB, the consulting outfit CHSRA has hired to conduct the project-level EIR/EIS work in the SF peninsula, for some hard data and SEL maps derived from computer simulations. Those need to be compared with maps of the current baseline situation produced using separate simulations, calibrated by measurements in the corridor. The effort involved is not trivial, it would take several months and a fair chunk of change to do properly.<br /><br />However, prop 1A(2008) allows CHSRA to spend up to 10% of the $9 billion reserved for HSR on project-level EIR/EIS work and preliminary engineering. Quantifying the noise issue ought to be a high priority. At this point, it's not even clear that the SEL would go up at all. Caltrain and UPRR operations are actually very noisy today, a fact that is often discounted.Rafaelhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05471957286484454765noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8419444332771213285.post-12910232944359433662009-07-10T20:18:25.866-07:002009-07-10T20:18:25.866-07:00Clem asked if there are other creeks downtown. Wel...Clem asked if there are other creeks downtown. Well, not downtown but just south of the Hayward park station there is a creek that runs parallel to tand just along he tracks for a couple of blocks and then southeast through the Fiesta Gardens neighborhood. Water tables are pretty high all around here and there's been a huge effort to deal with flood zones since the the flood maps have been redrawn to include most of the flatland in San Mateo in 100 year food plain. The thrust of the work has been widening and deepening creek channels I think.<br /><br />No comment on the noise issue I see...This is a big problem, everybody here sees what happened to Millbrae SSF and San Bruno with the airport and I don't think the Hillborough people are gonna just say "sure we'll settle for new windows" (like those cities did with SFO) .... <br /><br />And, just for full disclosure, I think that running trains all the way into SF is just a vanity project for the city. I think HSR's main use will be commuting from the Central Valley to the urban centers north and south and that for that purpose stopping at San Jose or running to the east bay make more sense.Karenhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00344059241190736092noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8419444332771213285.post-79491321467577418692009-07-10T14:22:09.900-07:002009-07-10T14:22:09.900-07:00I don't see how even with 12tph capacity, you ...<em>I don't see how even with 12tph capacity, you could get away with just two tracks</em>.<br /><br />For short stretches they could easily run 20 trains per hour in each direction. Railroads all over the world do it. Even Amtrak and NJ Transit manage more than that in the North River Tunnels.Adirondacker12800https://www.blogger.com/profile/17108712932656586797noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8419444332771213285.post-79382770270894252322009-07-10T09:09:51.646-07:002009-07-10T09:09:51.646-07:00Looking at some of the alternatives down on the Or...Looking at some of the alternatives down on the Orange County segment CAHSR has as one option<br /><br />For narrow sections, tunnels..FOR HSR ONLY..Metrolink/Amtrak stay as is. The nimbys crying about tunnel<br />tunnel may very well get this option..Caltrain at grade with no grade protection and HSR IN THE tunnels ..far less than digging 4 tracks worth and towns will have no grade improvments. this was aslo noted in the optionYESONHSRnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8419444332771213285.post-59123623625651139152009-07-10T08:13:50.498-07:002009-07-10T08:13:50.498-07:00Full grade separation is a key part of CHSRA's...Full grade separation is a key part of CHSRA's equation in the program EIR/EIS - its what allowed them to proclaim that this Peninsula route had no negative impact (because they conveniently traded off the truly ugly impacts of HSR with the 'benefits' of full grade separation.) <br /><br />Now if they come in and suggest NOT doing the grade seprations, opens quite a can of worms on the route decision itself. In fact it would pretty well negate the program level EIR.. THAT would be challenged until Obama's great grandkids were running for office.Observernoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8419444332771213285.post-83689073362394870772009-07-10T07:46:28.421-07:002009-07-10T07:46:28.421-07:00Richard, you're padding the width requirement....Richard, you're padding the width requirement. Platforms don't have to be 9 meters wide; the New York City Subway uses 5- or 6-meter island platforms when space is constrained. Track centers don't have to be 4.5 meters apart - French LGVs use 4.2, and while French trains are slightly narrower than American trains, LGVs are designed for greater speed and need more clearances.<br /><br />This gives 0.5 + 3.8 + 4.2*3 + 3.8 + 0.5 = 21.2 without platforms, and 0.5 + 3.8 + 4.2 + 1.5 + 5 + 1.5 + 4.2 + 3.8 + 0.5 = 25 with an island platform. With 4-meter side platforms, also common in New York, make it 4 + 1.5 + 4.2*3 + 1.5 + 4 = 23.6; you save width by using the side platforms as sound barriers and anchors for catenary.Alon Levyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12195377309045184452noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8419444332771213285.post-26369713553680219432009-07-09T23:35:52.676-07:002009-07-09T23:35:52.676-07:00I don't see how even with 12tph capacity, you ...I don't see how even with 12tph capacity, you could get away with just two tracks. <br /><br />While we might never schedule more than say 8tph, but the extra capacity is great when stupid shit happens. And stupid shit happens all the time. Besides suicides, people clipped at stations, there are unruly passengers that require police escort, the occasional "we overshot the platform" or just a crowd of bikers at various stops is enough to cause the train to be running 10 minutes behind schedule by the time it reaches the end of the line. <br /><br />The southbound baby bullets generally need to slow down prior to reaching mountain view about 50% of the time because they're catching up to the local trains by then. I'd say that you definitely want 4 tracks near SF and SJ. If you want a tighter schedule, you'll have to retard the schedule to allow for more recovery time. While that might make the 2 track world possible, you won't get any kudos from either Caltrain or HSR passengers while they wait for each other.<br /><br />BTW. Major kudos to caltrain and police after the last suicide:<br />http://www.mercurynews.com/traffic/ci_12789834<br />They actually left ONE track open despite the incident and had both tracks cleared in 1hr 15 mins. In most cases, they close both tracks, reopen one after an hour and both tracks after 2 hours.Martinhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16971687695880530830noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8419444332771213285.post-20838717009853443342009-07-09T16:51:24.662-07:002009-07-09T16:51:24.662-07:00@ Richard Mlynarik -
"Hmmmm... are four trac...@ Richard Mlynarik -<br /><br />"Hmmmm... are four tracks operationally necessary at this point?"<br /><br />I'm not sure quite how to interpret your chart, but it seems to imply a cruise speed of 100mph for Caltrain - sounds a bit high. It also doesn't appear to account for the need to slow down in some of the sharper corners.<br /><br />Th fundamental principle of multiplexing Caltrain and HSR trains is interesting, though. It's perfectly reasonable to expect Caltrain will be the sole dispatcher on its own ROW, i.e. for HSR trains to be treated as guests in terms of operations.<br /><br />Perhaps you could articulate in more detail where/how HSR trains would pass by Caltrain locals. How about three tracks plus side platforms at e.g. the San Mateo station?<br /><br />I realize that CHSRA for some reason believes it must build a system that permits 12tph HSR trains, regardless of how Caltrain traffic grows.<br /><br />Your apparent idea of running only 4tph out of SFTT plus 6tph out of SJ Diridon isn't going to be popular with SF politicians, but just how much capacity is really needed out of that city? A full-length TGV Duplex (300km/h) has 1090 seats, the Japanese E4Max even has 1634 but it's limited to 240km/h.<br /><br />On a related point: AB3034 requires that it be possible to run non-stop express trains from SFTT to LAUS in 2h38m or so. It doesn't say the HSR operator has to have the freedom to schedule those during Caltrain's rush hour.<br /><br />Final note: in theory, you can build a station with bypass tracks and island platforms in a very narrow space if the northbound tracks are on one level and the southbound ones above or below. If one is elevated and the other in a trench, cross roads at grade would be fully grade separated.<br /><br />The arrangement would avoid lateral eminent domain takings, possibly even permit existing curves to be straightened out. Unfortunately, many parts of the SF peninsula are a hodgepodge of over- and underpasses and, there are hydrological problems for all tunnels.Rafaelhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05471957286484454765noreply@blogger.com