tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8419444332771213285.post3897942521562295293..comments2024-03-25T08:35:51.364-07:00Comments on Caltrain HSR Compatibility Blog: Staking Out CBOSS TerritoryClemhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/01374282217135682245noreply@blogger.comBlogger56125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8419444332771213285.post-19034294715758739232010-06-09T06:49:03.326-07:002010-06-09T06:49:03.326-07:00the New York and Atlantic Railway is in a similar ...<em>the New York and Atlantic Railway is in a similar position to freight on the Caltrain corridor. It's a marginal freight route</em><br /><br />7 billion dollars so the NYAR can connect Brooklyn to Jersey City, with enough freight that they believe they need two tunnels, one in each direction, doesn't sound "marginal" to me.Adirondacker12800https://www.blogger.com/profile/17108712932656586797noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8419444332771213285.post-1663517756528420842010-06-08T23:22:05.420-07:002010-06-08T23:22:05.420-07:00Kevin: the New York and Atlantic Railway is in a s...Kevin: the New York and Atlantic Railway is in a similar position to freight on the Caltrain corridor. It's a marginal freight route, whose main function right now is to shoot down long-term plans to appropriate a freight-only right-of-way for <a href="http://frumin.net/ation/2007/06/le_triboro_rx.html" rel="nofollow">subway service</a>.Alon Levyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12195377309045184452noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8419444332771213285.post-33429308839248083072010-06-08T21:55:49.728-07:002010-06-08T21:55:49.728-07:00600 garbage trucks a day the 300 days a year that ...<i>600 garbage trucks a day the 300 days a year that garbage is collected for a century or so adds up. Gotta convince the people in Oakland that the stink and the noise is worth it... </i><br /><br />My goodness. You really know nothing about Oakland, nor its economy.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8419444332771213285.post-37015466632253824542010-06-08T18:28:50.863-07:002010-06-08T18:28:50.863-07:00Anonymous 1 sez:
"> Garbage barge on Bay:...Anonymous 1 sez:<br /><br />"> Garbage barge on Bay: Privately owned vehicle using natural resource ... "<br /><br /> ... and publicly funded infrastructure (read: ports).Kevin Hectemannoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8419444332771213285.post-74593016481078867582010-06-08T18:24:11.642-07:002010-06-08T18:24:11.642-07:00Garbage truck on Bay Bridge: zero incremental cost...<em>Garbage truck on Bay Bridge: zero incremental cost.</em><br /><br />600 garbage trucks a day ( all the garbage on the Peninsula, there is life and garbage outside of San Francisco ) the 300 days a year that garbage is collected for a century or so adds up. <br /><br />The East Bay may not be the Navel of the Universe that is the Peninsula. Gotta convince the people in <em>Oakland</em> that the stink and the noise is worth it...Adirondacker12800https://www.blogger.com/profile/17108712932656586797noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8419444332771213285.post-20677604056513181652010-06-08T13:26:24.475-07:002010-06-08T13:26:24.475-07:00The thing is, freight can be done on the peninsula...The thing is, freight can be done on the peninsula without escalating costs ... at all, really. Just not UP's flavor of freight...Joeyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16406340564037825796noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8419444332771213285.post-84280089628880237902010-06-08T12:41:18.102-07:002010-06-08T12:41:18.102-07:00Garbage truck on Bay Bridge: zero incremental cost...Garbage truck on Bay Bridge: zero incremental cost. Externalized costs: a zillionth of a bajillionth of a percent of any other transportation-related environmental mitigation.<br /><br />Freight along Caltrain: hundreds of millions of dollars of additional cost, decades of FRA regulatory hell, permanently higher operating costs for Caltrain (and HSR), higher procurement cost and worse energy efficiency for Caltrain.<br /><br />But ... TRUCKS ARE BAD. BAD BAD BAD BAD BAD. TRAINS GOOD. GOOOOOOOOOOOOD!!!!!!!!!!!Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8419444332771213285.post-12857348597232233872010-06-08T11:59:53.709-07:002010-06-08T11:59:53.709-07:00> Garbage barge on Bay: Privately owned vehicle...> Garbage barge on Bay: Privately owned vehicle using natural resource. The ILWU will even be happy.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8419444332771213285.post-31610344034474397532010-06-08T10:00:17.361-07:002010-06-08T10:00:17.361-07:00Richard Mlynarik sez: " ... even if -- incred...Richard Mlynarik sez: " ... even if -- incredibly stupidly, uneconomically, anti-environmentally and pork-ridden-hidden-subsidy-ly -- it were decided to retain freight north of Santa Clara, there is no need for UP locomotives to be involved."<br /><br />(rant)<br /><br />Stupidly? Uneconomically? Yada, yada, yada?<br /><br />Tell that to the shippers and their employees. I'm sure Sierra Point Lumber doesn't mind being called "marginal." Why all the enthusiasm to kick them out of the way? These are legitimate enterprises, after all. Are they not high-tech enough, or something?<br /><br />I've sad it before, and I'll say it again: In my view, cutting San Francisco and the Peninsula off from the national rail network is shortsighted.<br /><br />(/rant)<br /><br />OK, now that that's out of my system: I can go along with these two things: <br /><br />1) "Freight" does not necessarily mean "Union Pacific," everyone's favorite target hereabouts. A good short line could be to Caltrain as the <a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/New_York_and_Atlantic_Railway" rel="nofollow">New York and Atlantic Railway</a> is to the Long Island Rail Road. (You will still need an interchange with Uncle Pete; probably where Newhall Yard used to be before it was sold to VTA for a mess of BARTage.)<br /><br />2) I see no need, either, for inventing a new signal system from scratch. Not when Caltrain, long the Rodney Dangerfield of Bay Area public transit, is starving for funding.<br /><br />Now, as to all the trash talk about the garbage <a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Frd53vbCHLg" rel="nofollow">(sorry),</a> here's something to think about:<br /><br />> UP garbage train using Caltrain tracks: Privately owned vehicle using publicly funded infrastructure.<br /><br />> Garbage truck on Bay Bridge: Privately owned vehicle using publicly funded infrastructure.Kevin Hectemannoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8419444332771213285.post-16999904396143806132010-06-08T02:50:34.372-07:002010-06-08T02:50:34.372-07:00Better yet, put all that garbage in a single barge...Better yet, put all that garbage in a single barge to make the short crossing of the Bay to Oakland... <br /><br />People forget that Bay Area urbanization began with ports all around the Bay. The Bay Area was a sort of Venice before the big bridges.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8419444332771213285.post-50015178392218005092010-06-07T22:59:43.028-07:002010-06-07T22:59:43.028-07:00Adirondacker12800: I suspect everything in Califor...Adirondacker12800: I suspect everything in California subtends a very narrow angle from your vantage, but rest assured that if you use the correct map projection it becomes apparent that it is five of your earth miles from San Francisco to Oakland via the most environmental and sustainable route, a small fraction of all alternatives. And if you're giving a couple hundred truck trips even a millisecond's consideration in the context of more than a quarter of a million vehicles crossing the bridge per day (most of them single occupant passenger vehicles!) then (a) I have a bridge to sell you and (b) get some perspective.<br /><br />Besides ... INTER-MODAL! Whoo hoo! Bingo!Richard Mlynarikhttp://www.pobox.com/users/mly/noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8419444332771213285.post-48300153945626012172010-06-07T21:02:15.052-07:002010-06-07T21:02:15.052-07:00Garbage, being garbage, is the epitome of low valu...Garbage, being garbage, is the epitome of low value freight. Even if it takes a few days for the garbage gondolas to get to Oakland no one is going to be losing much sleep over the fact that it takes two days for garbage to get to Oakland. <br /><br />Trucking it to Oakland on the other hand isn't cheap. Sanitation workers aren't volunteers, They are going to want to get paid for that two hour trip to the transfer station in Oakland. Just like deadheading a train costs money and may mean you need more trains sending garbage trucks on two hour long trips means you need more garbage trucks. It also means you need more garbage trucks until somebody comes up with some other means besides garbage trucks to get it from San Francisco to Oakland. I suspect that San Francisco will be generating garbage for as long as there are people in San Francisco. <br /><br />The world doesn't end at the southern borders of San Francisco. People in San Mateo and Santa Clara counties also buy things that eventually become garbage. That has to be shipped somewhere. Back of the envelope calculations came up with 200 gons a day from the Peninsula going somewhere. Either mixed garbage or recyclables. And it's going to recyclables because no one is going to be opening smelters or glass furnaces on the Peninsula so that the recyclables are converted to raw materials before leaving the Peninsula. Even then the freshly recycled raw materials have to be shipped to a factory that will be using them as raw materials. <br /><br />Go ahead, convince the good people of the East Bay that they should host a few hundred Peninsula garbage trucks a day.Adirondacker12800https://www.blogger.com/profile/17108712932656586797noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8419444332771213285.post-71157955318338645592010-06-07T20:17:30.220-07:002010-06-07T20:17:30.220-07:00UP to haul 1,500 tons of SF trash per day
I wonde...<i>UP to haul 1,500 tons of SF trash per day</i><br /><br />I wonder if all that trash wouldn't be loaded onto railcars in Oakland. After all, 1500 tons per day is only about 100 garbage trucks per day, and sending 100 trucks back and forth across the Bay Bridge has got to be more environmentally friendly than sending all that trash on a nearly one hundred mile detour through the south bay.<br /><br />Then again, it's another convenient pretext to divert billions of public dollars into corporate welfare.<br /><br /><i>Worchester</i><br /><br />There's no 'h' in Wooster :-)Clemhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01374282217135682245noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8419444332771213285.post-23061508248417738392010-06-07T18:52:11.494-07:002010-06-07T18:52:11.494-07:00The North East Corridor is the most expensive and ...<em>The North East Corridor is the most expensive and worst performing and most underutilized similar stretch</em><br /><br />Wave a magic wand and make everthing between Pelham Bay and Back Bay Boston 225 MPH and there's still capacity constraints into Manhattan. Wave the same magic wand and make everything between Linden and Washington DC 225 MPH there's capacity constraints into Manhattan. It's under utilized except for the fiddly bits into Manhattan where lots of the would be passengers want to go. 26 trains per hour is quite respectable considering they are using century old infrastructure to do it.<br /><br />It probably would be much faster and more heavily used if Senators and Congressmen from places like California weren't perpetually whining about how much money rail costs. Though the Californians have gotten much less vocal in the past decade or so. <br /><br />Everything east of New Haven uses ACSES including the freight trains operated by the Providence and Worchester. The P&W hasn't gone bankrupt. <br /><br /><em>More Peninsula freight? ....garbage...</em><br /><br />Whenever I bring that up the reply is along the lines of "let <em> Oakland </em> worry about where to put the transfer station" As if the people of Oakland are just drooling at the thought of all the trucks, noise, smells etc that would bring.Adirondacker12800https://www.blogger.com/profile/17108712932656586797noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8419444332771213285.post-44120052065218902722010-06-07T17:25:23.670-07:002010-06-07T17:25:23.670-07:00More Peninsula freight? According to this article...More Peninsula freight? According to <b><a href="http://www.appeal-democrat.com/news/county-95806-san-francisco.html" rel="nofollow">this article</a></b>, there's a 10-year plan in the works for UP to haul 1,500 tons of SF trash per day to a landfill near Wheatland (below Yuba City north of Roseville).Reality Checknoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8419444332771213285.post-33901846739042833002010-06-07T16:46:49.092-07:002010-06-07T16:46:49.092-07:00@ Reality Check
Unfortunately, ships don't ha...@ Reality Check<br /><br />Unfortunately, ships don't have PTC.Peterhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00326948451529910432noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8419444332771213285.post-14162544544594645402010-06-07T16:18:24.949-07:002010-06-07T16:18:24.949-07:00The Caltrain-supplied/equipped locomotive "tu...The Caltrain-supplied/equipped locomotive "tug boat" solution seems perfect for the Peninsula's handful of freights. I say "tug boat" because I believe most (or all?) big ships that come into the Bay are required to use the services of a specially-qualified "pilot" captain (and sometimes tugs) to help ensure the "foreign" ship captains don't run aground or hit bridges or misjudge tides, etc. (Of course, as the unfortunate Cosco Busan vs. Bay Bridge incident demonstrated, it's not quite a fool-proof system either.)Reality Checknoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8419444332771213285.post-38058460229501392112010-06-07T15:19:46.669-07:002010-06-07T15:19:46.669-07:00Here's a random question. Could Caltrain use i...Here's a random question. Could Caltrain use its current diesel locomotives to haul UPRR's trains? Or are Caltrain's engines not strong enough?<br /><br />Because that way Caltrain could haul UPRR's junk up the Peninsula, without ever having to install ERTMS in any UP locomotives. They could, like Richard said, just keep a few old engines hanging out near Tamien, hook them up to the front of the freight train (would they even have to detach UP's locomotive?), and pull them up the Peninsula and back. No need for any system other than ERTMS.Peterhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00326948451529910432noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8419444332771213285.post-62714649748010442012010-06-07T15:11:54.667-07:002010-06-07T15:11:54.667-07:00Kevin, look, even if -- incredibly stupidly, uneco...Kevin, look, even if -- incredibly stupidly, uneconomically, anti-environmentally and pork-ridden-hidden-subsidy-ly -- it were decided to retain freight north of Santa Clara, <b>there is no need for UP locomotives to be involved</b>. This was about signalling, and Caltrain consultant's bloody-minded, self-enriching and self-aggrandizing schemes to invent from scratch something that will be everything to everybody, including all freight locomotives on the continent, seeking to "boil the ocean" as we say at work in their over-reach, technical hubris and managerial ineptitude, not about whether boxcars can get to to some marginal lumber yard somewhere.<br /><br />Locomotives which aren't UP's and which talk te Caltrain corridor's bog stadard ETCS (alone, or in parallel with whatever goody PTC thing is dreamed up for UP <i>in the future</i>) can do it. Easier to dual-equip two or 3 surplus F-40s than to waste hundreds of millions of your tax dollars making some Caltrain consultant a big man in a small CBOSS pond ... and also dual-equipping <i>every</i> HS train in the state and <i>every</i> Caltrain train, all for no gain at all.<br /><br />As for "<i>Out on the Northeast Corridor, they've figured out how freight and Acela can coexist.</i>" ... well, words fail. The North East Corridor is the most expensive and worst performing and most underutilized similar stretch of should-be-but-isn't intercity high speed rail on the planet. Run away!Richard Mlynarikhttp://www.pobox.com/users/mly/noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8419444332771213285.post-27202858039062782962010-06-07T10:13:07.098-07:002010-06-07T10:13:07.098-07:00Clem asked a fair question when he wrote: "We...Clem asked a fair question when he wrote: "Well, sure. But what does that mean in your mind? Everyone has a different idea of what "done right" might be, so everyone can agree that it must be "done right"."<br /><br />"Done right," to me, means optimizing the railroad for Caltrain while 1) preserving freight access and 2) allowing HSR without allowing HSR to run roughshod over Caltrain.<br /><br />Given what Caltrain service levels are likely to be once the wires go up, the most practical solution I can see is limiting freight operations to the wee hours. <br /><br />If Caltrain goes under, of course, then all bets are off.<br /><br />(Out on the Northeast Corridor, they've figured out how freight and Acela can coexist. See "Local freight where it shouldn't be," Trains magazine, July 2007, pages 52-61. I believe the Burlingame library carries this magazine; check the back issues.)<br /><br />And let's be real about the level of HSR service. I really don't see more than one HSR train per hour. If, say, HSR had one departure from each terminal from 6 a.m. to midnight, that works out to 36 HSR trains per day. (I think I saw 200+ trains per day somewhere. That couldn't have been right. Sounds like market oversaturation.)Kevin Hectemannoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8419444332771213285.post-67576821175956835202010-06-07T09:22:58.665-07:002010-06-07T09:22:58.665-07:00Barge... from where? The next port south along on ...Barge... from where? The next port south along on the coast is in Oxnard. There aren't really that many navigable rivers around. And the gravel trains are coming from a quarry near Watsonville, which is not particularly near any water.crzwdjkhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06394805356595604336noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8419444332771213285.post-49483654022203790602010-06-07T05:07:48.780-07:002010-06-07T05:07:48.780-07:00BTW, German shortlines sometimes do things like th...BTW, German shortlines sometimes do things <a href="http://www.drehscheibe-foren.de/foren/read.php?4,4447980" rel="nofollow">like this</a> (second photo) to serve their customers with lowest possible costs.djasahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12048881502455652892noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8419444332771213285.post-30109891452646051062010-06-07T01:28:21.380-07:002010-06-07T01:28:21.380-07:00"Here's a few reasons:"
You know, I ..."Here's a few reasons:"<br />You know, I will swear most of those customers should be using barges. Aggregates? For businesses adjacent to the Bay?!?neroden@gmailhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07475686367097445497noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8419444332771213285.post-16514964783657472292010-06-06T17:21:01.362-07:002010-06-06T17:21:01.362-07:00Operative words " ... if it's done right....<i>Operative words " ... if it's done right."</i><br /><br />Well, sure. But what does that mean in your mind? Everyone has a different idea of what "done right" might be, so everyone can agree that it must be "done right". Saying it must be "done right" is basically dodging the issue and ducking the question.<br /><br />I'm not picking on you, Kevin-- I'm just making a general point, because I hear that phrase all the time.Clemhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01374282217135682245noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8419444332771213285.post-43571499840665308502010-06-06T13:21:56.933-07:002010-06-06T13:21:56.933-07:00"There's no reason for any UP locomotive ..."There's no reason for any UP locomotive to travel along the Caltrain line."<br /><br />Here's a few reasons:<br /><br />Granite Rock<br />Cemex<br />Clean Harbors<br />Basic Chemical Solutions<br />Unilever<br />Calstone<br />Pine Cone Lumber<br />Pacific Agri-Products<br />Sierra Point Lumber<br />Dean's Trucking<br />Darling International<br />Waste Solutions Group<br /><a href="http://sfbayrail.com/" rel="nofollow">San Francisco Bay Railroad</a><br /><br /><a href="http://members.trainorders.com/nickrgeorge/guide/locals.html" rel="nofollow">Here's the source of that info.</a> Scroll down to "South San Francisco." I have no information on the number of carloads to and from these customers.<br /><br />I am of the conviction that cutting S.F. and the Peninsula off from the national rail network is shortsighted. As I said before, I believe there's room for everyone (Caltrain, HSR, freight) if it's done right.<br /><br />Operative words" " ... if it's done right."Kevin Hectemannoreply@blogger.com