tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8419444332771213285.post3597335840241583617..comments2024-03-17T12:42:36.234-07:00Comments on Caltrain HSR Compatibility Blog: Metrics That MatterClemhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/01374282217135682245noreply@blogger.comBlogger55125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8419444332771213285.post-78116167274257640372012-08-05T10:12:43.795-07:002012-08-05T10:12:43.795-07:00The demographics clearly indicate otherwise: the G...The <a href="http://caltrain-hsr.blogspot.com/2012/01/peninsula-rail-corridor-census.html" rel="nofollow">demographics</a> clearly indicate otherwise: the Gilroy branch has negligible population, negligible jobs, and demonstrates negligible ridership. Even if you increased frequency, there just isn't enough of a market there.Clemhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01374282217135682245noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8419444332771213285.post-67184933243760465462012-07-16T09:54:36.186-07:002012-07-16T09:54:36.186-07:00This analysis ignores my segment of the commute: t...This analysis ignores my segment of the commute: the South County extension. Service to/from Gilroy prove an embarrassing shortcoming in the Caltrain schedule.David Mhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03547449546942455726noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8419444332771213285.post-92202955946269194872010-07-30T23:04:10.054-07:002010-07-30T23:04:10.054-07:00people must carry it with them at all times.
Wron...<i>people must carry it with them at all times.</i><br /><br />Wrong. In Germany, all people must have ID, but they are not obliged to have it on them. If challenged by a police officer, they can say, "It's at home," unlike in some other countries (e.g. Israel), where they'd get fined.Alon Levyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12195377309045184452noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8419444332771213285.post-3275740627502967262010-07-30T22:06:12.753-07:002010-07-30T22:06:12.753-07:00Richard, I suspect you'd be in some trouble wi...Richard, I suspect you'd be in some trouble with the Polizei if they found out that you were travelling without your Ausweis. Your beloved Germany not only requires a national ID to travel, it requires it for just about anything else and people must carry it with them at all times. I know, this is nitpicking your over the top rant, but those are much more effective when they're actually accurate :)crzwdjkhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06394805356595604336noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8419444332771213285.post-3753230626553642182010-07-30T17:41:16.549-07:002010-07-30T17:41:16.549-07:00@Adirondacker12800 (and Richard): You probably wan...@Adirondacker12800 (and Richard): You probably want to re-read the comment at 29 July, 2010 17:51 from John Bacon, which is where the references to turnstiles entered the conversation, and redirect your ire accordingly.<br /><br />As I said earlier, <b>if</b> you have platform access controls, be they turnstiles or whatever, <b>and</b> you don't want them to have any impact on the dwell times of trains at the platforms, you have the platform access controls at the entrance to the platforms, not on the platforms themselves.thatbrucenoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8419444332771213285.post-57845947772598549672010-07-30T17:14:24.460-07:002010-07-30T17:14:24.460-07:00No. The Eurostar has separate platforms because t...No. The Eurostar has separate platforms because the UK requires all entering passengers to be passport and security checked. True, the Eurostars conform to narrow British loading gauges, but loading gauges and platform heights are frequently not very synced between the train and the platform in Europe (at least the places I've been).Joeyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16406340564037825796noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8419444332771213285.post-8898809310254570062010-07-30T14:42:01.027-07:002010-07-30T14:42:01.027-07:00On the shared platforms, your platform access cont...<em>On the shared platforms, your platform access control (turnstiles, ticket inspector etc) makes sure that only passengers with tickets have access, irrespective of which service the ticket is for. You rely on the onboard train staff to catch anyone who boards the incorrect service.</em><br /><br />Then either the elaborate turnstiles are superfluous or the on board staff is superfluous. Unless your aim is to needless annoy passengers and have twice as much staff as you need. Lets not forget the company that provides and services the superfluous turnstiles. <br /><br /><em>On the dedicated platforms, your platform access control only permits those with tickets for the services that are going to use that platform. ( Eurostar is a good example to use for dedicated platforms,</em><br /><br />Ah yes pick different platform heights and loading gauges. Why not make Caltrain third rail to make it even more like BART and as slow as BART? <br /><br />The reason Eurostrar has dedicated platforms is that it has different platform heights and loading gauges compared to the legacy systems. There is no legacy system in California to speak of. What little there is will be altered beyond recognition by the time the first HSR train comes through. <br /><br />A rational system won't have dedicated platforms because rational people plan for scheduled maintenance and unexpected problems. Unless your aim is to single track when there's a problem instead of going to three tracks out of four when there's a problem. <br /><br /><em>You allow CAHSR ticket holders access to the normally-Caltrain-only platform for that time period, assuming that the access control mechanism at the Caltrain station recognises the CAHSR tickets.</em> <br /><br /><br />If they have conductors on the trains why do they need turnstiles at the non-HSR stations? Or if they have strung turnstiles all up and down the line why do they need conductors?Adirondacker12800noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8419444332771213285.post-50897987288680395072010-07-30T13:48:28.820-07:002010-07-30T13:48:28.820-07:00Speaking of multiple services using the same platf...Speaking of multiple services using the same platform, here is an example of a station platform where <a href="http://img130.imageshack.us/img130/8245/im63gvbss0092.jpg" rel="nofollow">two services have differing platform heights.</a><br /><br />The high platforms in the background are used by the metro system, and the low platforms in the foreground are used by the tram system.<br /><br />( The metro train pictured there also switches from third-rail to overhead, as well as differing platform widths between the metro and tram systems; a youtube search for <a href="http://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=sneltram+zuid" rel="nofollow">sneltrain zuid</a> shows the changeover. )thatbrucenoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8419444332771213285.post-9028992559178227852010-07-30T13:33:22.580-07:002010-07-30T13:33:22.580-07:00Dear Blogger; if you are going to complain about a...Dear Blogger; if you are going to complain about a post being too long and imply that the post needs to be split up, don't post the post.thatbrucenoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8419444332771213285.post-38997368694914530362010-07-30T13:31:38.744-07:002010-07-30T13:31:38.744-07:00@Adirondacker12800: how do you separate the HSR pa...@Adirondacker12800: <i>how do you separate the HSR passengers inside the turnstiles for the express track from the passengers inside the turnstiles for the Caltrain express?</i><br /><br />On the shared platforms, your platform access control (turnstiles, ticket inspector etc) makes sure that only passengers with tickets have access, irrespective of which service the ticket is for. You rely on the onboard train staff to catch anyone who boards the incorrect service.<br /><br />On the <a href="http://www.gdni.ch/luwi/site21/images/Bruxelles/Midi_Eurostar-Disney.JPG" rel="nofollow">dedicated</a> <a href="http://londonist.com/2007/11/instant_bloggin.php" rel="nofollow">platforms</a>, your platform access control only permits those with tickets for the services that are going to use that platform. ( Eurostar is a good example to use for dedicated platforms, as the UK's status re <a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Schengen_Area" rel="nofollow">Schengen</a> requires that passports are checked. Other European HSRs operating completely within the Schengen area do not have any requirement for passport control, and most of the time, do not run off dedicated platforms).<br /><br /><br /><br /><i>What happens when there's a special event and they want to have a extra HSR train serve a Caltrain station that normally doesn't have HSR service?</i><br /><br />You allow CAHSR ticket holders access to the normally-Caltrain-only platform for that time period, assuming that the access control mechanism at the Caltrain station recognises the CAHSR tickets.thatbrucenoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8419444332771213285.post-33455303695379394682010-07-30T13:30:21.894-07:002010-07-30T13:30:21.894-07:00@Adirondacker12800: how do you separate the HSR pa...@Adirondacker12800: <i>how do you separate the HSR passengers inside the turnstiles for the express track from the passengers inside the turnstiles for the Caltrain express?</i><br /><br />On the shared platforms, your platform access control (turnstiles, ticket inspector etc) makes sure that only passengers with tickets have access, irrespective of which service the ticket is for. You rely on the onboard train staff to catch anyone who boards the incorrect service.<br /><br />On the <a href="http://www.gdni.ch/luwi/site21/images/Bruxelles/Midi_Eurostar-Disney.JPG" rel="nofollow">dedicated</a> <a href="http://londonist.com/2007/11/instant_bloggin.php" rel="nofollow">platforms</a>, your platform access control only permits those with tickets for the services that are going to use that platform. ( Eurostar is a good example to use for dedicated platforms, as the UK's status re <a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Schengen_Area" rel="nofollow">Schengen</a> requires that passports are checked. Other European HSRs operating completely within the Schengen area do not have any requirement for passport control, and most of the time, do not run off dedicated platforms).<br /><br /><br /><br /><i>What happens when there's a special event and they want to have a extra HSR train serve a Caltrain station that normally doesn't have HSR service?</i><br /><br />You allow CAHSR ticket holders access to the normally-Caltrain-only platform for that time period, assuming that the access control mechanism at the Caltrain station recognises the CAHSR tickets.<br /><br />@Richard: Here, I'll add an<br /><a href="http://nl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bestand:Hal-schiphol-plaza-ns.jpg" rel="nofollow">airport</a> to the train-station/transportation center/shopping centre mix (besides, I haven't visited the new Berlin Hbf). The access control to the underground platforms, which provide all-stops, fast, express (unreserved and reserved such as IC) and HSR services (infrequent ICE, Thalys, Fyra), is the yellow pole beside the entrance to the escalator (and those shiny poles to stop airport baggage carts going down to the platform), which is a timestamping machine for the national <a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Strippenkaart" rel="nofollow">zone-based ticket</a>. Most of the tickets used there don't require interaction with the machine; you just need to have a valid ticket on you in order to be on the platform.<br /><br />Being based at an airport, all of the extra security things are present, if you are catching a plane. If not, you can wander around the unsecured areas as much as you like (loitering near the mid-east and US checkin desks will attract attention though).<br /><br />I'm not saying that you need access control such as turnstiles, I'm saying that if you have them, you don't put them on the platform itself as that will slow down passengers entering/leaving the trains. Nor do you need platforms dedicated all the time to a given service, as experience from Europe has shown that it is possible for multiple services with differing fare structures to use the same set of platforms without too much drama.thatbrucenoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8419444332771213285.post-36986515214387958242010-07-30T11:08:49.817-07:002010-07-30T11:08:49.817-07:00Turnstiles? What are you trying to build? Some s...Turnstiles? What are you trying to build? Some sort of low-throughput and cost-plus-plus-plus-plus-plus security apparatus with transportation an afterthought?<br /><br />Can anybody tell me where to find the turnstiles, fare gates, security fencing, paid areas, unpaid areas, internal passport inspection zones (GOVERNMENT ISSUED ID REQUIRED TO TRAVEL), security queues, X-ray machines, paid mezzanine levels, dedicated secured platforms allocated only to specific trains, airside shopping, landside shopping, "sterile platforms", etc <a href="http://www.google.com/images?num=20&hl=en&q=%22berlin+hauptbahnhof%22" rel="nofollow">in this spanky-new facility</a>? The architects must have overlooked something really basic somehow. Quick, send over MTC's Clipper Card consultant$ and the Transbay Terminal World Class designer$ ASAP to set them straight!Richard Mlynarikhttp://www.pobox.com/users/mly/noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8419444332771213285.post-11377721626679102642010-07-30T10:41:45.147-07:002010-07-30T10:41:45.147-07:00Thatbruce, how do you separate the HSR passengers ...Thatbruce, how do you separate the HSR passengers inside the turnstiles for the express track from the passengers inside the turnstiles for the Caltrain express? How much wider does the platform need to be to accommodate the fare control sturcture running the length of the platform? What happens when there's a special event and they want to have a extra HSR train serve a Caltrain station that normally doesn't have HSR service?Adirondacker12800noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8419444332771213285.post-52718398025501569662010-07-30T09:49:06.610-07:002010-07-30T09:49:06.610-07:00@John Bacon: Platform edge screens combined with t...@John Bacon: <i>Platform edge screens combined with turnstiles opposite each train door would only admit reserved seat boarding pass holders. </i><br /><br />No. That will cut the passenger throughput in and out of the train tremendously, leading to increased dwell times and longer run times for the trains.<br /><br />Your problem is that you've spread the turnstiles out linearly <b>and</b> coupled them directly to the train admitting passengers, meaning that if one door has a problem admitting passengers (whether mechanical failure or the tourist unfamilar with the system), the train needs to wait for the problem to be resolved before it can depart. Any attendants that you have on the platform to deal with any such problems will need to be in good shape, as good 'ol Murphy indicates that problems will occur at each end of the train concurrently.<br /><br />Keeping the platform access control decoupled from the trains departure means that if there is a problem with one or more turnstiles, it doesn't interfere with the trains themselves. Keeping the turnstiles all in a small number of locations also means that the turnstile attendant is more available to help with issues relating to the turnstiles not functioning (or the tourist who doesn't know how they work etc).thatbrucenoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8419444332771213285.post-3491904453188051002010-07-29T23:13:34.890-07:002010-07-29T23:13:34.890-07:00But will it work with Clipper? This is a serious q...But will it work with Clipper? This is a serious question, by the way. If it doesn't, it definitely won't be interchangeable with Caltrain.crzwdjkhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06394805356595604336noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8419444332771213285.post-73244181603030187702010-07-29T17:51:57.525-07:002010-07-29T17:51:57.525-07:00Commuter use of HSR reserved seat trains: In order...Commuter use of HSR reserved seat trains: In order to prevent delays during peak traffic periods the first objective should be to prevent commuters from interfering with reserved seat long distance passengers. The second objective should be to maximize HSR system yield during off peak hours by allowing commuters to reserve seats less than 5 minutes before boarding. Commuters could use POS touch screen ticket upgrade displays near each HSR train door where unreserved seats are still available. Platform edge screens combined with turnstiles opposite each train door would only admit reserved seat boarding pass holders. Global displays would tell reserved seat holders which train door to use and inform hopeful commuters which boarding area is closest to the most not-yet-reserved HSR seats.John Baconhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06487111497340132298noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8419444332771213285.post-73045870491671436462010-07-29T17:44:39.815-07:002010-07-29T17:44:39.815-07:00Who is going to be in the unreserved cars between ...Who is going to be in the unreserved cars between San Jose and Los Angeles?Adirondacker12800noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8419444332771213285.post-25487003256314399652010-07-29T17:18:16.435-07:002010-07-29T17:18:16.435-07:00Okay, Adirondacker, so you just completely ignored...Okay, Adirondacker, so you just completely ignored the parts about reserved and unreserved cars.Alon Levyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12195377309045184452noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8419444332771213285.post-56979836582159620312010-07-29T14:34:00.011-07:002010-07-29T14:34:00.011-07:00@ adirondacker12800
In that case, I agree that is...@ adirondacker12800<br /><br />In that case, I agree that is a little far-fetched.Peterhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00326948451529910432noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8419444332771213285.post-17332154551906450392010-07-29T14:05:50.142-07:002010-07-29T14:05:50.142-07:00Peter, the fantasy that that they are drooling ove...Peter, the fantasy that that they are drooling over is that you show up at Transbay at 5:13 instead of your regular time of 5:16. Instead of using your monthly Caltrain ticket to get on the Caltrain 5:18 express to San Jose you just dart onto the 5:15 to Los Angeles and everyone, happy as clams, gets a seat and no one wants to get on at SFO and take the train to Fresno has to maneuver their luggage around the standees for Palo Alto.Adirondacker12800noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8419444332771213285.post-9494879388434600562010-07-29T12:39:38.347-07:002010-07-29T12:39:38.347-07:00@ Arcady
My argument was not about reservations o...@ Arcady<br /><br />My argument was not about reservations on commute operations. You won't find seat reservations for RB or RE trains in Germany, for example. My argument was simply that a seat reservation system is not the Anti-Christ that some are making it out to be. It works quite well, actually. Hell, you don't have people fighting over seats on airplanes when they have an assigned seat, do you?Peterhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00326948451529910432noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8419444332771213285.post-2637995820508383402010-07-29T10:06:06.584-07:002010-07-29T10:06:06.584-07:00It doesn't matter how far it is. What matters ...It doesn't matter how far it is. What matters is how long the trip takes.Alon Levyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12195377309045184452noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8419444332771213285.post-41285267761256275662010-07-29T09:57:30.086-07:002010-07-29T09:57:30.086-07:00How useful are IC trains for commuting though? How...How useful are IC trains for commuting though? How far out is the first stop from the city, and how big is the commuting zone? It seems to me that European cities have shorter commuting distances from their suburbs, and certainly nothing like the 45 miles from SJ to SF, or even the 35 miles from Mountain View.crzwdjkhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06394805356595604336noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8419444332771213285.post-46658247346608713182010-07-29T07:29:29.984-07:002010-07-29T07:29:29.984-07:00@ adirondacker 12800
I gave the example of the IC...@ adirondacker 12800<br /><br />I gave the example of the ICE simply because they have the new displays for the seat reservations. Get on any IC or EC train and you'll find the same seat reservation system works just fine with little sheets of paper. It's really not as difficult or as controversial as you think it is.<br /><br />I don't believe the long distance trains in Germany have more than two conductors.Peterhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00326948451529910432noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8419444332771213285.post-88364248306715804532010-07-29T00:52:06.242-07:002010-07-29T00:52:06.242-07:00Clem, at least one of the potential private operat...Clem, at least one of the potential private operators of CAHSR, JR East, doesn't do any yield management. You can look up Shinkansen fares in a table. And in principle they're the same as on the slow trains; in practice, there's an unavoidable seat surcharge, as all Shinkansen passengers must have a seat.<br /><br />And Adirondacker, the ICE has a fare premium, but the IC doesn't. The TGV shows up on TER schedules as an express train, and costs the same as the slow trains.<br /><br />What needs tons of assistant conductors is the Amtrak first-come-first-served model, where people who book tickets together aren't guaranteed to find seats together. Large groups and Amtrak don't interact too well, not without conductors telling everyone exactly where to sit.Alon Levyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12195377309045184452noreply@blogger.com